Upgrade amp or processor

[flyboylr45]

What BW speakers do you have? I wasn't going to risk clipping an amp and damaging $$$$$ speakers. I know that too much power can hurt them as well. I was looking at some Funk Audio 18s and also JL. I'm sure there are others.

I "was" looking but going to put it on hold until after I buy my convertible next year. Music's not my only hobby. I have OCD, just like most of us, and like things to match. I only have 2 pieces of gear that aren't MC and honestly regret it. I wish I would have gotten an MCD500 and an MT10 or MT5. The turntable would be one of those, would be nice to have some day, maybe. The cd player, while I don't really use it all that much, I would have liked to have gotten the MC unit. Don't get me wrong, the Esoteric is a beautiful unit.

BTW, the MC452 NEVER sounds strained. lol

 

[BWguy]

What BW speakers do you have? I wasn't going to risk clipping an amp and damaging $$$$$ speakers. I know that too much power can hurt them as well. I was looking at some Funk Audio 18s and also JL. I'm sure there are others.

I "was" looking but going to put it on hold until after I buy my convertible next year. Music's not my only hobby. I have OCD, just like most of us, and like things to match. I only have 2 pieces of gear that aren't MC and honestly regret it. I wish I would have gotten an MCD500 and an MT10 or MT5. The turntable would be one of those, would be nice to have some day, maybe. The cd player, while I don't really use it all that much, I would have liked to have gotten the MC unit. Don't get me wrong, the Esoteric is a beautiful unit.

BTW, the MC452 NEVER sounds strained. lol

I have the 804D. I would love to have the 802Di but out of my price range for now (kids college expenses coming up)

 

[flyboylr45]

I have the 804D. I would love to have the 802Di but out of my price range for now (college expenses coming up)

I feel for you. I have that coming up in 20 years. ;-) The 804s are awesome speakers. The SB13 Ultras are awesome too, I just feel that they don't have that limitless oomph that the rest of the system seems to have. Maybe it's in my head.

If you're mostly into 2 channel music, I would do the Mc amp and then a Mc 2 channel pre. Most Mc preamps have HT bypass so you can use any processor for movies and then when you want to enjoy a 2 channel system you can.

 

[PENG]

I am not necessarily unhappy with my set up, although when I do have music cranked high, say between -10 and -5, it can sound a little strained at times.
I am thinking that a more powerful amp will allow me crank up the music with powerful bass, and yet still sound in control. But, that is why I am on this site to help me understand what a higher end would do for me. Based on previous comments, I would need 400 watts/channel to get a3db increase.

I typically cannot tolerate anything higher than -15 on my 8801 and I sat 12 ft from speakers in a small room. If you are in a even mid size room with the 8802 at -5 and you want to have no risk of clipping, you probably should consider the Mc1.2kW X 2 for the L/R channels. As you know, to determine power requirements you need to know your speaker's sensitivities, room dimensions and other factors, but I would think the Mc1.2kW is a safe bet.

Just noticed you posted about that you have the 804D. In that case I would not recommend the Mc1kW as they can melt down those little ones. The Mc452 mentioned before should be perfect but I am just not sure if the autoformers would limit the peaks, you can always email tech support. IMHO I would go with something that offers close to double down and exceptional high peak current capabilities.

 

[flyboylr45]

I typically cannot tolerate anything higher than -15 on my 8801 and I sat 12 ft from speakers in a small room. If you are in a even mid size room with the 8802 at -5 and you want to have no risk of clipping, you probably should consider the Mc1kW X 2 for the L/R channels. As you know, to determine power requirements you need to know your speaker's sensitivities, room dimensions and other factors, but I would think the Mc1kW is a safe bet.

Just noticed you posted about that you have the 804D. In that case I would not recommend the Mc1kW as they can melt down those little ones. The Mc452 mentioned before should be perfect but I am just not sure if the autoformers would limit the peaks, you can always email tech support. IMHO I would go with something that offers close to double down and exceptional high peak current capabilities.

What is it about the autoformers you doubt would limit the peaks? I was under the impression that what prevents clipping, or sending a clipped signal in the Mc is the power guard system. I honestly don't know what all the technical jargon means. It's also quad balanced. No idea what that means either.

I was reading and maybe you can make some sense in this. The MC452 at max power consumes 11 amps at 110v. In theory, what's the max power it can deliver? I know there's a formula, just don't know it.

Thanks for any info in advance.

 

[PENG]

I base my comments on comparing published power output specs only. A Classe 300W 8 ohm Classe amp will probably be rated 600W 4 ohms or slightly less. A Mc 300W amp will likely be rated 300W for 8,4, or 2 ohms so during the impedance dips (below 8 ohms) a 300W Mc amp would be more current limited than a 300W Classe amp that is capable of allowing the voltage to rise even as impedance drops. Aside from the their effects on output power and impedance matching, I have other concerns of the autoformer concepts but I will keep those to myself because those concerns are probably just due to my lack of understanding of their design, though I do know transformers (including autotransformers) quite well. Despite my concerns, I would buy a Mc amp in a heart beat if I can afford their Mc1.2kW monoblocks.

 

[BWguy]

I typically cannot tolerate anything higher than -15 on my 8801 and I sat 12 ft from speakers in a small room. If you are in a even mid size room with the 8802 at -5 and you want to have no risk of clipping, you probably should consider the Mc1.2kW X 2 for the L/R channels. As you know, to determine power requirements you need to know your speaker's sensitivities, room dimensions and other factors, but I would think the Mc1.2kW is a safe bet.

Just noticed you posted about that you have the 804D. In that case I would not recommend the Mc1kW as they can melt down those little ones. The Mc452 mentioned before should be perfect but I am just not sure if the autoformers would limit the peaks, you can always email tech support. IMHO I would go with something that offers close to double down and exceptional high peak current capabilities.

When you say you can't tolerate anything higher than -15, are you referring to the loudness level or the 8801 begins to sound harsh.

 

[flyboylr45]

I base my comments on comparing published power output specs only. A Classe 300W 8 ohm Classe amp will probably be rated 600W 4 ohms or slightly less. A Mc 300W amp will likely be rated 300W for 8,4, or 2 ohms so during the impedance dips (below 8 ohms) a 300W Mc amp would be more current limited than a 300W Classe amp that is capable of allowing the voltage to rise even as impedance drops. Aside from the their effects on output power and impedance matching, I have other concerns of the autoformer concepts but I will keep those to myself because those concerns are probably just due to my lack of understanding of their design, though I do know transformers (including autotransformers) quite well. Despite my concerns, I would buy a Mc amp in a heart beat if I can afford their Mc1.2kW monoblocks.

The reason I ask is because MC says that the autoformer is of a wider bandwidth than that of the circuits within the amplifier so in no way can it limit the performance.

BTW, I would have also loved to have bought the Mc1.2kw. At some point enough is enough. lol

 

[PENG]

BTW, I would have also loved to have bought the Mc1.2kw. At some point enough is enough. lol

I have listened to many high end systems over the years. The set up I enjoyed most was a pair of Mc1.2kW driving a pair of Blades, and the second best was a pair of 802D (the original diamond) powered by a Bryston 14B. I couldn't afford either so I ended up with the 4BSST/1028Be in one system and the LS50 plus a sealed sub YTBP in my second 2ch system and when that second system is complete, I will convince myself that it is a poor man's version of the Blades/Mc1.2kW combo.

 

[PENG]

When you say you can't tolerate anything higher than -15, are you referring to the loudness level or the 8801 begins to sound harsh.

No harshness, just my ears could not take the loudness (SPL). Now if I push it up to +5 then I guess the amp will clip at times; and/or the speakers may be strained. I have no need to test the limit though because I never feel the need to crank it pass -15. Obviously the 8801 based system is for my HT. The amp for the L/R speakers is only rated 225W.

 

[flyboylr45]

I'll be honest, I listened to a pair of Montana $30,000 speakers with a Pass 350.5 and I wasn't that impressed. Even when I listened to the 802s, I knew that the setup (room) in the store was less than optimal. When I got them home, they REALLY sang. My sales guy came over to the house to check the rest of the installation they were doing and when he sat down in my room, he said he wished they had a room like that in their store. People spend a lot of time on electronics and stuff but neglect the most important thing, the ROOM. My room is dedicated and appropriately treated, with no WAF taken into consideration. It is MY room and only for music. There is ONLY one seat in the room. It cost me a lot, I make monthly payments for life (my wife gets to stay home).

 

[BWguy]

I read somewhere that the Classe 2300 doubles the power when the speakers dip to 4 ohms. I am not sure if Mcintosh Amps do that. Sine B&W speakers are known to dip down to 3 ohms, wouldn't this be an advantage?

 

[Irvrobinson]

The reason I ask is because MC says that the autoformer is of a wider bandwidth than that of the circuits within the amplifier so in no way can it limit the performance.

Just for the record, flyboy, since I'm being quoted as an output transformer hater, my issue isn't that I think the autoformers negatively impact the sound quality of the McIntosh amps. I'll grant McIntosh's claim that they are audibly transparent. My issue is that they are superfluous devices that don't provide a meaningful value-add on modern solid state amplifiers, and that they limit current into low impedance loads that solid state amplifiers are typically good at, and are loads modern loudspeakers often present. The only reason McIntosh uses output transformers on solid state amplifiers is marketing legacy for legacy's sake, just like Porsche does with the 911's rear engine, and GM does with the Corvette's pushrod engine and transverse leaf springs. I have trouble buying products that I know are purposely hobbled for pure marketing, although I have to admit that in the Corvette's case GM has done a remarkable job exploiting the advantages a cam-in-block motor has, and the leaf springs are composite plastic, making them the most advanced lightweight springs on any car.

 

[flyboylr45]

Most good amplifiers do. As far as Mc is concerned, I don't see many reviews where they measure the amp's power output. I read somewhere that the MC452 will peak out at around 900 watts/channel. Don't know if it's true. I'd really love for Gene to do a review on any MC amp (I live in Orlando and I'm willing to drive this thing to Kissimmee l-)). I don't know what really goes on behind the scenes, but it would be interesting at least. Like I said, I auditioned the Pass 350.5 that Gene loves and to be honest, unless you had both, the Pass and the Mc running the same pair of speakers simultaneously with the same electronics and level matched, you wouldn't know which is which, so in which case, it would be wise to go with the one that will have the higher resale value. If you look at it, everyone goes through upgradeitis, so why not start with something that you can get most of your money for? I can sell my Mc452 for what I paid for it. I got a good deal because I bought over $30,000 in electronics and service, but still. You can't get that from a convertible Z06.

 

[flyboylr45]

BTW, my reply was after yours was posted but I was in the middle of writing. I'm serious about the vete and that's the convertible I'm looking at. I almost bought a Hellcat last week but I think that the Vette will have a better resale value and it's a car I can take to the track on the weekends with my wife.

 

[slipperybidness]

Just for the record, flyboy, since I'm being quoted as an output transformer hater, my issue isn't that I think the autoformers negatively impact the sound quality of the McIntosh amps. I'll grant McIntosh's claim that they are audibly transparent. My issue is that they are superfluous devices that don't provide a meaningful value-add on modern solid state amplifiers, and that they limit current into low impedance loads that solid state amplifiers are typically good at, and are loads modern loudspeakers often present. The only reason McIntosh uses output transformers on solid state amplifiers is marketing legacy for legacy's sake, just like Porsche does with the 911's rear engine, and GM does with the Corvette's pushrod engine and transverse leaf springs. I have trouble buying products that I know are purposely hobbled for pure marketing, although I have to admit that in the Corvette's case GM has done a remarkable job exploiting the advantages a cam-in-block motor has, and the leaf springs are composite plastic, making them the most advanced lightweight springs on any car.

+1

No need for OPTs on a SS amp!

 

[flyboylr45]

Hey, I respect your opinion. Please elaborate. I really do want to understand. It won't make a difference because it is what I bought and what has high resale value, but I do want to understand, or at least get your side of the point. Like I said, I have zero ee background. Unless it has to do with airplanes, I know nothing. All I know is I enjoys very much!!!

 

[flyboylr45]

It cost me a lot, I make monthly payments for life (my wife gets to stay home). [/QUOTE]

BTW, she hasn't figured out that it's cheaper to keep her at home than to have her work and pay for child care. SSSSHHHHHHHHH.....

 

[PENG]

Hey, I respect your opinion. Please elaborate. I really do want to understand. It won't make a difference because it is what I bought and what has high resale value, but I do want to understand, or at least get your side of the point. Like I said, I have zero ee background. Unless it has to do with airplanes, I know nothing. All I know is I enjoys very much!!!

For non EE, here's something from the horse's mouth:

http://www.roger-russell.com/mcintosh1.htm

It really is just basically an autotransformer that has one winding with no isolation between the primary and secondary winding. You get different voltage ratios by changing taps. I think Gene would probably agree even if you have 4 ohm speakers, you could/should leave it at the 8 ohm tap to get the higher voltage as long as you are run your amp well below its rating power output limit.

I should not have used the term "limiting" current without stating the operating conditions. I was only trying to make one point, that if I were to compare the power output rating of a Mc and a Classe (in Op's list) I would compare their 4 ohm ratings. So I would say the Classe's 2300 amp would do better on the bench than the Mc452. That is, 600W vs 400W but I repeat, that is based on their published specs (the so call continuous power output, not peak or dynamic). It is possible that the Mc452 actually are capable of more. I hate to quote IRV but he really are saying things similarly in regard to the autoformer, though not exactly the same as I put it. I would just add that autotransformers inherently have lower losses than two winding transformers, but they still have losses, I prefer to avoid introducing any losses if possible. Lastly, I would like to emphasis that I am confident over the years Mc must have mastered the secrets and over design their components enough that the autotransformer scheme transparent (sorry IRV, quoting you again).

So am I contradicting myself, not really. It's like I said earlier, the Mc and the Classe might have different THD from 0.03% to 0.003% but I am 99.99% certain that makes no difference to our ears. Their are other much more important factors but psychologically, everything else being equal, I would still prefer the 10X lower THD. If the look, resale value and perceived better reliability are not in the equation, the OP could in theory do better with the Classe assuming more power output is the goal. The 804D will become the bottleneck with either amp upgrade.

 

[PENG]

It cost me a lot, I make monthly payments for life (my wife gets to stay home).

BTW, she hasn't figured out that it's cheaper to keep her at home than to have her work and pay for child care. SSSSHHHHHHHHH.....[/QUOTE]

Wow, planes, 802 diamonds, Clear Audio TT, Mc amps, what else can an audioholic ask?