Upgrade amp or processor

[BWguy]

What is more important, an amp or a processor? I am trying to decide if it would make more sense to upgrade my amp or processor. Currently I am using a 5x200 Rotel RMB 1095 amp with a Marantz 8801 prepro. I am I am probably 80% music and 20% movies.
I am considering adding either a Classe 2300 or Mcintosh 302 2 channel amp and use the Rotel for the center and surrounds. My other thought would be to get the Marantz 8802 processor. Early reviews state it is much improved for 2 channel stereo. But with Marantz updating their processors every 2 years. I might wait until the 8803 comes out in 2016 and could probably get the 8802 at a discount.
I know the prices of the above amps are substantially more than the Rotel, but what makes them sonically better?

 

[fuzz092888]

I would say that you'd have to hear both amps yourself to know if you're going to expect any improvement over what you already have, in terms of amps. That being said, amps are going to hold their value better than processors so I see less risk investing in either the Classe or Mc. If it were me, I'd probably go with the Mc for the high build quality, made in USA and looks, but that's just me..

As far as processors go, I wouldn't get the 8802 until they're releasing HDCP 2.2 compliant out of the box, or wait until for the 8803.

 

[markw]

when you say "upgrade", what are your expectations?

Changing between good amps will offer minimal changes since the basic designs pretty much stay the same. They may offer a bit more headroom for peaks but a measly 3 db improvement will entail doubling the true power of the existing amp stages. A substantial 10 db improvement would requite 10x the power.

The most noticeable changes will come from speakers or an additional sound mangler, errr.. processor format. Processors simply add new processor schemes and tout that new feature as improvements. But, what is the desired result? One never really knows because the output never existed in reality and is possibly the unrealistic realization of ones dreams.

Keep in mind that all these processor schemes are useless for two channel reproduction since many go out of their way to avoid these in two channel mode.

So, what are you looking for in your upgrade?.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I won't comment on which I think would sound better.

But I think the McIntosh amp would be cooler.

 

[BWguy]

when you say "upgrade", what are your expectations?

Changing between good amps will offer minimal changes since the basic designs pretty much stay the same. They may offer a bit more headroom for peaks but a measly 3 db improvement will entail doubling the true power of the existing amp stages. A substantial 10 db improvement would requite 10x the power.

The most noticeable changes will come from speakers or an additional sound mangler, errr.. processor format. Processors simply add new processor schemes and tout that new feature as improvements. But, what is the desired result? One never really knows because the output never existed in reality and is possibly the unrealistic realization of ones dreams.

Keep in mind that all these processor schemes are useless for two channel reproduction since many go out of their way to avoid these in two channel mode.

So, what are you looking for in your upgrade?.

So why is Rotel considered to be mid-fi while Classe and Mcintosh are considered hi-fi?

 

[markw]

Dunno. You assume that just because one can spend money one can automatically differentiate between these arbitrary terms based on price.

The only you will be able to tell is by trying them and listening for yourself. Methinks you put much stock in Stereophile reviews as opposed to your own listening abilities. Some things you can't gauge by reading words written on these products by those paid to write those words.

With gear like that I'm sure dealers will allow you to try it at home, at least if you pay by credit card and return it for a credit. Or many will sit on the charge for a week or so before running it through the system until you either call and say "I'll take it" or return it at a pre-arranged time. That seems a fair way to make a judgment based on what really satisfies you. And if, after listening to them you're still not sure, you may then realize how arbitrary these terms are when applied to ones personal experience. Remember the headroom thing, though. One can often confuse raw power/headroom with improved quality.

Anyhoo, I have run a pair of Maggie 1.6's with a Rotel RB-991 and haven't had any complaints.

So, what ARE your expectations of this "upgrade", anyway.

But, ADTG is right . The Mac does look kooler.

 

[fuzz092888]

So why is Rotel considered to be mid-fi while Classe and Mcintosh are considered hi-fi?

For the most part
- Quality of parts used
- Build quality
- Looks
- Status/reputation

In terms of actual performance
- Possibly will deliver greater current/will handle more difficult loads
- Possibly longer term reliability to being overbuilt
- More headroom on some models (although the Mc only has 1.8db of headroom not sure about the classe)
- Possibly tighter specs

Now all that's great, but will it make an audible difference? After you lug it home, set it up, and see it sitting there in all it's glory I'm guessing it might be a little hard to stay objective. Especially with those glorious glowing meters staring at you.

 

[BWguy]

Dunno. You assume that just because one can spend money one can automatically differentiate between these arbitrary terms based on price.

The only you will be able to tell is by trying them and listening for yourself. Methinks you put much stock in Stereophile reviews as opposed to your own listening abilities. Some things you can't gauge by reading words written on these products by those paid to write those words.

With gear like that I'm sure dealers will allow you to try it at home, at least if you pay by credit card and return it for a credit. Or many will sit on the charge for a week or so before running it through the system until you either call and say "I'll take it" or return it at a pre-arranged time. That seems a fair way to make a judgment based on what really satisfies you. And if, after listening to them you're still not sure, you may then realize how arbitrary these terms are when applied to ones personal experience. Remember the headroom thing, though. One can often confuse raw power/headroom with improved quality.

Anyhoo, I have run a pair of Maggie 1.6's with a Rotel RB-991 and haven't had any complaints.

So, what ARE your expectations of this "upgrade", anyway.

But, ADTG is right . The Mac does look kooler.

Tight powerful bass, no distortion at high volumes, no harshness, clean vocals.
I also agree, the Mcintosh looks cool

 

[BWguy]

For the most part
- Quality of parts used
- Build quality
- Looks
- Status/reputation

In terms of actual performance
- Possibly will deliver greater current/will handle more difficult loads
- Possibly longer term reliability to being overbuilt
- More headroom on some models (although the Mc only has 1.8db of headroom not sure about the classe)
- Possibly tighter specs

Now all that's great, but will it make an audible difference? After you lug it home, set it up, and see it sitting there in all it's glory I'm guessing it might be a little hard to stay objective. Especially with those glorious glowing meters staring at you.

Right, with all of the work lugging it home ,setting it up, and spending time listening to it, it is easy to justify the purchase.

 

[PENG]

For the most part
- Quality of parts used
- Build quality
- Looks
- Status/reputation

Agree.

In terms of actual performance
- Possibly will deliver greater current/will handle more difficult loads
- Possibly longer term reliability to being overbuilt
- More headroom on some models (although the Mc only has 1.8db of headroom not sure about the classe)
- Possibly tighter specs

They may handle more difficult loads but like IRV, I also feel their use of those autotransformers (or autoformer they call them) in the output should disqualify them from being truly hi fi but that's just according to my own definition of true hi fi. Will they result in audibly degraded SQ, probably not, not to me anyway. I would still buy one just for their good look.

 

[PENG]

Tight powerful bass, no distortion at high volumes, no harshness, clean vocals.
I also agree, the Mcintosh looks cool

A few years ago, most hi end shop that sold B&W 800 series use Bryston or Classe and they all claimed those nice things (except for the cool looks) you mentioned above regarding their choice of amps. It could be that they got better price for those amps since they were, still are, made in Canada. Only two years ago I was considering the 804 diamond and the dealer was still using Bryston. I have never seen one single dealer (in Ontario) that uses Rotel amps to demo their high end B&W speakers but I do feel Rotel amps sound as good as any I have listened to.

I think for sound quality upgrade (from lower distortions etc.) you will be better off investing in speakers upgrade, but like others I am constantly being tempted to upgrade amps mostly because generally amp upgrades are more affordable and more choices base on "better/cooler" looks.

I plotted many graphs recently with REW and have seen with my own eyes that distortions of speakers are many times higher than that I just can't see how going from Rotel's say 0.03% would be much different than Classe's 0.002% (not real numbers) assuming everything else being relatively equal.

 

[3db]

Another question that begs to be answered is and a similar spin to what Markw has already asked but i haven't seen your reply too....is what do you feel is missing with your current setup?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

They may handle more difficult loads but like IRV, their use of those autotransformers (or autoformer they call them) in the output should disqualify them from being truly hi fi but that's just according to my own definition of true hi fi. Will they result in audibly degraded SQ, probably not, not to me anyway. I would still buy one just for their good look.

They sound just great at 0.0 dB, so they must sound awesome at 90.0 dB, right?

 

[BWguy]

Another question that begs to be answered is and a similar spin to what Markw has already asked but i haven't seen your reply too....is what do you feel is missing with your current setup?

I am not necessarily unhappy with my set up, although when I do have music cranked high, say between -10 and -5, it can sound a little strained at times.
I am thinking that a more powerful amp will allow me crank up the music with powerful bass, and yet still sound in control. But, that is why I am on this site to help me understand what a higher end would do for me. Based on previous comments, I would need 400 watts/channel to get a3db increase.

 

[flyboylr45]

If you need 400 watts/channel, then the MC452 is for you. I think it's splitting hairs between all these high end amps, they all sound and measure good. But when it comes down to re-selling it, Mcintosh is king. As far as the autoformers, Mcintosh says they're transparent. I have zero engineering background so can't comment. I can however say that you will enjoy the Mc for many years to come. Don't ask how I know...

 

[ski2xblack]

Since this seems to be primarily about the bass, have you identified and addressed your specific room dependent acoustic issues regarding bass response? While you may indeed require a more powerful amp, room acoustics will have a tremendous impact on bass/mid-bass. Even modest, unobtrusive bass traps can greatly benefit response in the modal region.

Back to amps, unclipped power in excess of what you'll ever actually use is great, provided your speakers can handle it without going to pieces. At some point (hopefully beyond your own needs) they will impose limits.

 

[BWguy]

If you need 400 watts/channel, then the MC452 is for you. I think it's splitting hairs between all these high end amps, they all sound and measure good. But when it comes down to re-selling it, Mcintosh is king. As far as the autoformers, Mcintosh says they're transparent. I have zero engineering background so can't comment. I can however say that you will enjoy the Mc for many years to come. Don't ask how I know
How would you describe the difference between your Rotel amp and your Mcintosh?

 

[BWguy]

If you need 400 watts/channel, then the MC452 is for you. I think it's splitting hairs between all these high end amps, they all sound and measure good. But when it comes down to re-selling it, Mcintosh is king. As far as the autoformers, Mcintosh says they're transparent. I have zero engineering background so can't comment. I can however say that you will enjoy the Mc for many years to come. Don't ask how I know...

How would you describe any differences between your Rotel amp and your Mcintosh amp?

 

[flyboylr45]

Honestly, I couldn't even begin to tell you. I have never listened to the BW 802s with any other amp. I know before buying the MC452, I listened to Classe, Audio Research, Pass Labs, Conrad Johnson, and Krell. I also had for a brief while an MA7000 running Focal 1028be speakers. It is very difficult, if not impossible to go to different retailers and audition different pieces of gear and remember which ones you liked and why. I bought the Mc because of how it sounded to me, the features, looks and the resale value. Also, the rest of the system is going to play a part in the overall sound.

I like to listen to music at fairly loud levels and I think the Rotel, or most low powered amps would clip the way I listen. This link http://vid1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/andybernal/20150417_162950_zpskhqfr7yu.mp4, is a clip from Steely Dan's Aja song. This was recorded with my Note 4. It sounds horrible on the phone, but consider that the amp is sitting between 2 subs. Also, the 802s are crossed at 65hz so the lower notes are taken over by the powered subs.

I think everyone suffers from upgradeitis at some point. I already want to upgrade my 2 subs. Either way, I would choose the amp over the processor. They are outdated way too quickly.

 

[BWguy]

Honestly, I couldn't even begin to tell you. I have never listened to the BW 802s with any other amp. I know before buying the MC452, I listened to Classe, Audio Research, Pass Labs, Conrad Johnson, and Krell. I also had for a brief while an MA7000 running Focal 1028be speakers. It is very difficult, if not impossible to go to different retailers and audition different pieces of gear and remember which ones you liked and why. I bought the Mc because of how it sounded to me, the features, looks and the resale value. I like to listen to music at fairly loud levels and I think the Rotel would clip the way I listen. This link http://vid1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/andybernal/20150417_162950_zpskhqfr7yu.mp4, is a clip from Steely Dan's Aja song. This was recorded with my Note 4. It sounds horrible on the phone, but consider that the amp is sitting between 2 subs. Also, the 802s are crossed at 65hz so the lower notes are taken over by the powered subs. I think everyone suffers from upgradeitis at some point. I already want to upgrade my 2 subs. Either way, I would choose the amp over the processor. They are outdated way too quickly.

Thank for your reply. I probably listen at levels similar to you. At times I feel the music gets strained somewhat at high volumes.
Just curious, what subs are you looking to upgrade to

Honestly, I couldn't even begin to tell you. I have never listened to the BW 802s with any other amp. I know before buying the MC452, I listened to Classe, Audio Research, Pass Labs, Conrad Johnson, and Krell. I also had for a brief while an MA7000 running Focal 1028be speakers. It is very difficult, if not impossible to go to different retailers and audition different pieces of gear and remember which ones you liked and why. I bought the Mc because of how it sounded to me, the features, looks and the resale value. Also, the rest of the system is going to play a part in the overall sound.

I like to listen to music at fairly loud levels and I think the Rotel, or most low powered amps would clip the way I listen. This link http://vid1291.photobucket.com/albums/b557/andybernal/20150417_162950_zpskhqfr7yu.mp4, is a clip from Steely Dan's Aja song. This was recorded with my Note 4. It sounds horrible on the phone, but consider that the amp is sitting between 2 subs. Also, the 802s are crossed at 65hz so the lower notes are taken over by the powered subs.

I think everyone suffers from upgradeitis at some point. I already want to upgrade my 2 subs. Either way, I would choose the amp over the processor. They are outdated way too quickly.

Sounds like we listen at similar levels. Although I think the Rotel sounds pretty good, it just feels strained at time when I have it cranked.
What subs are you thinking of upgrading to? I have the SVS PB 13 as my system is for music and movies.