Subwoofer to work with the LS50

[macddmac]

Is a kit E15 an option? Could bring cost to import down substantially
Cheers, Mac

 

[KEW]

Do you believe two F12SE will be better than one E15HP for my pair of LS50? Have you seen any graphs for the F12's?

Thanks again!

Unfortunately, I have not seen graphs for the F12's.
Better in what sense? Naturally, a pair will reduce nodes and nulls.
From the Rythmik website:

Output comparison
At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

• F12: 0db (baseline)
• F8: -1.5db
• LV12R: +2.5db
• E15HP: + 3.5db
• F15HP: +4db
• FVX15: +6.5db
• FV15HP: +9.5db
• F25: +8db

I'm sure to get corrected, but I think a second sub gains 3dB, and 6dB if you co-locate them.

I chose the E15HP because it is more compact (which I value) than the F15HP, but only gives up 0.5dB. My room is open to upstairs, kitchen, and office, ending up at close to 13000 cu. ft. so I didn't want to risk F12's not being enough, plus the E15HP comes with an upgraded driver from the generation used in the F12 and original F15. In other words, I felt like the E15HP's pretty well had the versatility to meet my current needs and stick with me into my next home, etc. I also knew I would be using them with either Focal Twin6Be, Paradigm Signature S-2 or Philhamonic 3's. These allow me to cross below 80Hz, so the 15" is a good fit (per Rythmik you should use the F12 if crossing up to 100Hz, and the F12G up to 120Hz).
If you get a hold of Brian Ding with Rythmik, I believe him to be the kind of guy who will give you honest advice, and he knows his product inside out.
Also, your crossover frequency is a determinant.

For starters, check the "Which pre-built subwoofer is right for me?" section at this link:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/selection_guide.html#F12vsF12G

Also check the various tidbits of info on this page:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products1.html

I think he probably loses business because his site is complicated and not as organized as it could be, but there is a lot of info there. The best option is to call and ask for Brian. Have him call you back, if he is not available. Enrico (his phone assistant) is a good guy and knows the product fairly well but won't sweat your specific details the way I know you want to before making your final decision.

The PSA graph looks pretty darn good. I wish I knew a way to determine how noticeable the difference is. You are down to very good options and the worst choice you can make at this point is still very good!

 

[PENG]

Unfortunately, I have not seen graphs for the F12's.
Better in what sense? Naturally, a pair will reduce nodes and nulls.
From the Rythmik website:

I meant better overall. I did read up on their website and they seemed to have implied the differences between the F12, E15 and F15 are just the outputs otherwise performance in distortion and frequency response will be the same. I can see that at least in theory their claim is believable because of the servo feature.

I do prefer the 15 but after adding up the brokerage fees, duty and shipping it will cost close to what I paid for my PB13U not that long ago so WAF will be the problem. The F12 is more affordable and it's duty/shipping cost much less as well. So if I go with the F12 for now, I could hopefully be ready for a second one say by Christmas. I would only do that if I have enough evidence/confidence that two F12 equals (obviously just roughly) one E15 HP in terms of sound quality and output. I think in stereo mode 3 dB increase can be expected but that may mean one E15HP still wins. On second thought, a couple dB difference in output really won't matter for my music listening so the only important factor is sound quality, but no graphs for the F12 so far, disappointing..

 

[KEW]

The F12's have been out a very long time and no graphs. There is a DIY using a rythmik driver with servo on the databass chart, but I'm not sure if it is a replica of a finished Rythmik sub or not (also not sure if it is 12" or 15" off the top of my head). I must admit that I find the impulse data there much harder to interpret than the XTZ charts.

I believe that Brian would steer you towards the F12 as soon as he established that your speakers use a 5.25" woofer. Most other companies would not admit that their smaller, less expensive sub outperforms their more expensive subs in any aspect, but apparently, he has established the SQ of the F12 is better in the 80Hz up territory (I'm not sure exactly where he'd draw the line, don't take 80Hz as gospel).

Here is a post recounting a conversation between Brian and Acoustat:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/changing-crossover-in-audyssey.93079/#post-1065157

Also note that the output comparison is at 20Hz. This may not be your major area of concern, and have to believe 20Hz data is more favorable for 15" drivers as compared to 30-60Hz data, which likely narrows the gap.

I think you understand I am speaking opinion more than knowing at this point, but I do believe the F12 (se is only cosmetic differences as far as I understand, so that part is yours) is your best option.
I also believe the PSA are the value choice for a tight musical sub.

 

[billy p]

Peng....HTS has some measured archives...done by Ilkka on a Rythmik 12".

Don't know how much has changed in terms of diver modification or upgrade but it could possibly be used as baseline for what you may be seeking. Hope it helps.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5756-diy-rythmik-audio-direct-servo-12-sealed-56l.html

 

[PENG]

Peng....HTS has some measured archived...done by Ilkka on a Rythmik 12".

Don't know how much has changed in terms of diver modification or upgrade but it could possibly be used as baseline for what you may be seeking. Hope it helps.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5756-diy-rythmik-audio-direct-servo-12-sealed-56l.html

Those graphs look good to me. One would think that the F12 should produce similar response. Great find, thanks again. I will be reading up on the PSA equivalents and then......

 

[billy p]

Another option that you might want to consider is the Dual F8. Dave over at Ascend seems to think the F8 offers easier room placement down the road(2) because of the smaller mass & lighter driver offering slightly better transient response. He would later add that the F12 would have negligible extension advantage but more headroom at those freq. Btw...he being using them I believe with the RAAL Towers which do use 5.25" drive units.

 

[Steve81]

These allow me to cross below 80Hz, so the 15" is a good fit (per Rythmik you should use the F12 if crossing up to 100Hz, and the F12G up to 120Hz).

A couple thoughts:

1. IMHO, the higher the XO the better since you'll be minimizing excursion (and consequently distortion) on the LS50s relatively small mid/bass driver. This is also helpful in that it keeps the mid/bass cone acting as a stable waveguide for the tweeter.

2. It's also important to keep in mind that with a single 5.25" cone, which is closer to the effective size of a 4.0-4.5" driver due to the area taken up by the concentric tweeter, the LS50's aren't high output speakers. In that respect, I'd reckon that the F12G (or the F8 w/ dual 8" drivers) should keep up just fine.

 

[Tom V.]

Very nice synopsis of all the subs....Kurt. If you connect the dots surrounding all 4 subs the XS15se @ 749.00 is a very good deal...even better prices can be found on some "B" stock models in the outlet store.

Food for thought...

The XS15se is only $749 for another week or so. We discounted it because there will be a slight delay in shipping(around mid april). Also, we get very good shipping rates into Canada. Anyone looking for a specific quote please email me, thanks.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[3db]

Brian Ding from Rythmik offered me a big discount on shipping on the LV12-R. I realize the sub your looking at is bigger again then what I ordered so you may not get the break I did. I would ask Brian if he would knock some more of the cost of the sub to take care of more of the shipping cost. Never hurts to ask. .

 

[PENG]

Brian Ding from Rythmik offered me a big discount on shipping on the LV12-R. I realize the sub your looking at is bigger again then what I ordered so you may not get the break I did. I would ask Brian if he would knock some more of the cost of the sub to take care of more of the shipping cost. Never hurts to ask. .

I did chat online with Tom yesterday and his price (USD 749) is really tempting, surely they do make much profit on those. I am still very tempted by the Rythmik's servo and better look (again that's subjective). If I decided on the Rythmik I would definitely feel guilty about spending so much on this hobby.. I am still trying to figure out if the PSA XS15se+miniDSP will be as good or better than the F12 or E15HP. For the money saved I can live with the look of the PSA but not if SQ suffers. Good thing I got the PB13U when our dollar was much stronger.

 

[Tom V.]

A couple thoughts:

1. IMHO, the higher the XO the better since you'll be minimizing excursion (and consequently distortion) on the LS50s relatively small mid/bass driver. This is also helpful in that it keeps the mid/bass cone acting as a stable waveguide for the tweeter.

2. It's also important to keep in mind that with a single 5.25" cone, which is closer to the effective size of a 4.0-4.5" driver due to the area taken up by the concentric tweeter, the LS50's aren't high output speakers. In that respect, I'd reckon that the F12G (or the F8 w/ dual 8" drivers) should keep up just fine.

I second this. Keep the XO at a minimum of 100hz. I would also try 110-120hz too. The LS50s start straining under 120hz(ish).

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio