Yamaha AVR sounds better than my new Parasounds?

[vantara]

Hi. This is a follow-on to a previous post of mine re: 2-channel setup for under $2k. I suspect I'm doing something wrong here, so would be interested in more of the excellent feedback I've already received here. I've also reached out to Parasound support... we'll see if they respond. Anyway, here's the story:

I finally replaced my old Yamaha HTR with a Parasound A23 amp/P5 pre-amp combo. Driving a pair of NHT Absolute Towers and an SVS SB2000 sub.

I have to say that I was disappointed with the sound compared to the Yamaha, believe it or not, but I figured I must be doing something wrong. So, I did some fiddling around with the connections and balanced/unbalanced switch on the back of the amp.

At first, I was running nice balanced XLR cables between them (can’t remember the brand). Switch in the back set to “Balanced” (I figured this was obvious). But I didn’t like the sound. Too closed, muffled. Not enough openness or high end dynamics. So, just for grins, I added RCA cables between the units. Then, while the music was playing, I switched the switch from “Balanced” to “Unbalanced.” Voila! Beautiful sound.

So, I just figured RCA/Unbalanced just sounded better for some reason. I pulled out the XLRs, and bought a nice set of RCAs from Bluejeanscable. But again, I thought something was missing in the sound. Thought maybe I would try switching from “Unbalanced” back to “Balanced” to see if there would be any difference with just the RCAs. Truth be told, I was assuming-- with only RCAs connected-- that once I switched from “Unbalanced” to “Balanced” I’d hear no sound, because there were no longer an XLR cables attached. Surprise! Sound still coming out using the RCAs whether the switch was Balanced or Unbalanced. And in addition, no change in sound quality using the RCAs in either Balanced or Unbalanced mode.

So now, I’m thinking that maybe it’s not XLR or RCA that’s the issue, since it appears that I’m going to get sound out of each regardless of what the switch is set to. And perhaps, maybe the amp defaults to XLR processing even if both XLR and RCA are connected… and I was actually getting better sound through the XLR with the switch set to “Unbalanced.”

Anyway, if I'm doing something wrong, I'd love to know what. Thanks for reading, and any suggestions.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Hard to explain for sure what you’ve been experiencing, assuming you had the amp in “stereo” mode and not “mono bridge.” One thing to keep in mind that all analog signals coming to the pre amp are unbalanced (and I assume the digital are converted to unbalanced as well), so the signal has to be converted to balanced internally. Typically this is done with transformers or (more commonly) integrated circuits. Possible the conversion circuitry isn’t as good as it could be (although that’s hard to believe with a component of this caliber).

Or, perhaps one of the XLR jacks is wired wrong internally on either the amp or pre-amp. That would put the signal out of phase, which would definitely sound bad. A sure-fire indicator would be if the bass from the speakers sounds weak using the XLR cables.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[highfigh]

You're not using the

Hard to explain for sure what you’ve been experiencing, assuming you had the amp in “stereo” mode and not “mono bridge.” One thing to keep in mind that all analog signals coming to the pre amp are unbalanced (and I assume the digital are converted to unbalanced as well), so the signal has to be converted to balanced internally. Typically this is done with transformers or (more commonly) integrated circuits. Possible the conversion circuitry isn’t as good as it could be (although that’s hard to believe with a component of this caliber).

Or, perhaps one of the XLR jacks is wired wrong internally on either the amp or pre-amp. That would put the signal out of phase, which would definitely sound bad. A sure-fire indicator would be if the bass from the speakers sounds weak using the XLR cables.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

The jacks are mounted to the board, not wired.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Thought that might be the case, but I couldn’t find a picture to verify...

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[witchdoctor]

If you send an e-mail to Richard Scram from Parasound he will likely get right back to you, he is a great guy and provides awesome service. I'll PM it to you/

 

[highfigh]

Thought that might be the case, but I couldn’t find a picture to verify...

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Their site has photos.

 

[highfigh]

Hi. This is a follow-on to a previous post of mine re: 2-channel setup for under $2k. I suspect I'm doing something wrong here, so would be interested in more of the excellent feedback I've already received here. I've also reached out to Parasound support... we'll see if they respond. Anyway, here's the story:

I finally replaced my old Yamaha HTR with a Parasound A23 amp/P5 pre-amp combo. Driving a pair of NHT Absolute Towers and an SVS SB2000 sub.

I have to say that I was disappointed with the sound compared to the Yamaha, believe it or not, but I figured I must be doing something wrong. So, I did some fiddling around with the connections and balanced/unbalanced switch on the back of the amp.

At first, I was running nice balanced XLR cables between them (can’t remember the brand). Switch in the back set to “Balanced” (I figured this was obvious). But I didn’t like the sound. Too closed, muffled. Not enough openness or high end dynamics. So, just for grins, I added RCA cables between the units. Then, while the music was playing, I switched the switch from “Balanced” to “Unbalanced.” Voila! Beautiful sound.

So, I just figured RCA/Unbalanced just sounded better for some reason. I pulled out the XLRs, and bought a nice set of RCAs from Bluejeanscable. But again, I thought something was missing in the sound. Thought maybe I would try switching from “Unbalanced” back to “Balanced” to see if there would be any difference with just the RCAs. Truth be told, I was assuming-- with only RCAs connected-- that once I switched from “Unbalanced” to “Balanced” I’d hear no sound, because there were no longer an XLR cables attached. Surprise! Sound still coming out using the RCAs whether the switch was Balanced or Unbalanced. And in addition, no change in sound quality using the RCAs in either Balanced or Unbalanced mode.

So now, I’m thinking that maybe it’s not XLR or RCA that’s the issue, since it appears that I’m going to get sound out of each regardless of what the switch is set to. And perhaps, maybe the amp defaults to XLR processing even if both XLR and RCA are connected… and I was actually getting better sound through the XLR with the switch set to “Unbalanced.”

Anyway, if I'm doing something wrong, I'd love to know what. Thanks for reading, and any suggestions.

I can't think of a good reason for your P5/A23 to sound this way but the one thing that has been changing the sound so far has been your cables.

What's the history of your XLR cables? Were you using them in a stereo, or in a guitar/PA rig?

I have the same pre/power amp combo and my experience has been the opposite- I was using a Denon AVR and by comparison, the Parasound is like removing a set or ear muffs.

Did you change the input sensitivity settings on the power amp?

Were you facing the back of the equipment, or connecting everything by feel, while looking at the manual or an online image?

What cables are you using? FWIW, the unbalanced cables I used are Planet Waves and they sounded fine, although the balanced input does add a bit of level. When I changed to balanced, the cables I'm using are Canare L4E6S with Neutrik XLR ends and it does sound a little warmer, although I wasn't looking for a difference in sound, I was really just testing the cables since I had made them up for an installation I have been working on. I have extra cable, so I will be making a set for myself soon.

Cold solder joints can cause sonic problems- I would look at the resistance.

As far as Parasound contacting you, I would be surprised if they don't send a message by tomorrow morning- they have a light staff on Mondays.

 

[highfigh]

I can't think of a good reason for your P5/A23 to sound this way but the one thing that has been changing the sound so far has been your cables.

What's the history of your XLR cables? Were you using them in a stereo, or in a guitar/PA rig?

I have the same pre/power amp combo and my experience has been the opposite- I was using a Denon AVR and by comparison, the Parasound is like removing a set or ear muffs.

Did you change the input sensitivity settings on the power amp?

Were you facing the back of the equipment, or connecting everything by feel, while looking at the manual or an online image?

What cables are you using? FWIW, the unbalanced cables I used are Planet Waves and they sounded fine, although the balanced input does add a bit of level. When I changed to balanced, the cables I'm using are Canare L4E6S with Neutrik XLR ends and it does sound a little warmer, although I wasn't looking for a difference in sound, I was really just testing the cables since I had made them up for an installation I have been working on. I have extra cable, so I will be making a set for myself soon.

Cold solder joints can cause sonic problems- I would look at the resistance.

As far as Parasound contacting you, I would be surprised if they don't send a message by tomorrow morning- they have a light staff on Mondays.

BTW- there's no "defaulting to XLR"- all outputs are live. I haven't asked or seen a diagram, but I believe the outputs are buffered- make sure you're not sending signal to the Loop Output jacks. They're the smaller RCA jacks.

 

[RichB]

On some Parasound Amps the XLR/RCA switch just grounds one leg of the XLR's.
So, you should connect only one type of cable at a time.

Can you post pictures?

- Rich

 

[3db]

Is there anyway you can set it up so you can switch qucikly back and forth from the Yamaha for the ParaSound? I would suspect that both would sound equally well until you got to levels where you begin pushing the power delivery envelope of the Yamaha.

 

[vantara]

Thanks for all of the input.

I was using Audioquest MacKenzie balanced XLR (brand new). However, I returned them because I assumed (perhaps falsely now), that when toggling from balanced to unbalanced (with both XLRs and RCAs connected), and hearing better sound with unbalanced, that it must be the wire. This is why I am classified as "Enthusiast" here. :-}

I did not knowingly change anything called Input Sensitivity on the power amp, and I was careful to be looking at the back of both units as I was connecting them up. There's nothing connected to the Loop Output jacks.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Parasound is NOT fully balanced, but has XLR connectors.

So whether you use RCA or XLR, I think the quality, THD, SNR, XO, etc., should be the same.

 

[highfigh]

Thanks for all of the input.

I was using Audioquest MacKenzie balanced XLR (brand new). However, I returned them because I assumed (perhaps falsely now), that when toggling from balanced to unbalanced (with both XLRs and RCAs connected), and hearing better sound with unbalanced, that it must be the wire. This is why I am classified as "Enthusiast" here. :-}

I did not knowingly change anything called Input Sensitivity on the power amp, and I was careful to be looking at the back of both units as I was connecting them up. There's nothing connected to the Loop Output jacks.

You can change the input controls, I just didn't know if you did. If you find that the increments of the remote volume control are too large, you can turn the controls CCW to make the increments smaller.

This preamp isn't fully balanced, but using the XLR does benefit WRT common mode noise reduction. The cost of fully-balanced outweighed the benefits, according to Parasound. When I went from unbalanced to balanced, I immediately noticed that the noise level dropped on phono because my cartridge is a high output MC and it's output is very low compared to most MM, so I had to have the VC indicator at 12:00 to get a level that's similar to a MM cartridge with normal output.

Try the regular kind of XLR cables but as RichB wrote, one set of cables at a time.

 

[PENG]

As mentioned by different people in different threads/posts how much difference you hear depends on a number of factors such as the amps and the AVRs being compared to, the speakers, source media, media players, listening habits(how loud, type of music) and the individual's perception and that can also be affected by how prone the individual is to Placebo effect. In the OP's case, there may be an additional factor, that is when both balanced and unbalanced are connected at both ends. Without seeing a circuit diagram or a narrative of how it's done, I am not sure about the effect of not having them (the balanced and single ended I/O) isolated from each other.

The Halo amps (pre and power) are not fully balanced but as highfigh said the noise benefits are still there and at those price point I wouldn't want them to implement fully balanced as something else would have to go so the manufacturer has to make the best choice for the best possible benefits.

I do find it weird that they don't isolate the balanced from the unbalanced outputs, would love to see the circuit diagram or ask Richard about it (hope highfigh will email him for an explanation).

 

[RichB]

I do find it weird that they don't isolate the balanced from the unbalanced outputs, would love to see the circuit diagram or ask Richard about it (hope highfigh will email him for an explanation).

They are not isolated in the A21 and A51 but I think they were on the A31.
I guess that makes it weirder

- Rich

 

[vantara]

You can change the input controls, I just didn't know if you did. If you find that the increments of the remote volume control are too large, you can turn the controls CCW to make the increments smaller.

This preamp isn't fully balanced, but using the XLR does benefit WRT common mode noise reduction. The cost of fully-balanced outweighed the benefits, according to Parasound. When I went from unbalanced to balanced, I immediately noticed that the noise level dropped on phono because my cartridge is a high output MC and it's output is very low compared to most MM, so I had to have the VC indicator at 12:00 to get a level that's similar to a MM cartridge with normal output.

Try the regular kind of XLR cables but as RichB wrote, one set of cables at a time.

So, if I understand correctly, you're saying I *should* get better sound (or more specifically, less noise) using XLR vs. RCA connections? And sorry... CCW, MC, MM, VC?

 

[highfigh]

So, if I understand correctly, you're saying I *should* get better sound (or more specifically, less noise) using XLR vs. RCA connections? And sorry... CCW, MC, MM, VC?

CCW=Counter-Clockwise, MC= Moving Coil, MM= Moving Magnet, VC= Volume Control.

If you use a cartridge with 1.5mV output and the phono inut is set to 47K MM, you should hear less noise with the volume control marker straight up. I heard a bit of hiss when I used the balanced cables, but your BJC cables would be a bit different because mine have been kicked around for a few years.

How were your tone settings when you used the Yamaha? Did you use YPao and was it active when you last used the Yamaha? That would be a good reason for this to sound more dull if YPao's interpretation of your room's needs included boosting the treble or removing mid-range.

I'm not using any tone control and I wasn't when I last used my Denon AVR, so I was comparing one directly with the other and didn't want Audyssey to skew my preception.

 

[highfigh]

Working on an e-mail now and I'll save it as a draft if more questions come up in the next day. I already listed the questions about whether the inputs and outputs of this combo are isolated but I did ask previously about them being live at the same time and was told they are.

Re: not isolating the balanced and unbalanced- at consumer signal levels and, since they're not used at the same time, I don't think there's much reason to. Adding buffers costs more and if most people don't need the isolation, it's really wasted. I was told both outputs can be used simultaneously, to two amplifiers, with no loss of signal level or degradation of the sound. If many power amplifiers are used, a distribution amplifier should be used, anyway.

I'm not looking for anything too tweaky, though. I'm not going to ask about internal component choices, placing weights on the top or using speaker cable stands.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The cost of fully-balanced outweighed the benefits, according to Parasound.

Of course they would say that. If their amps were fully balanced, they would be swearing up and down how much better fully balanced is.

 

[highfigh]

Of course they would say that. If their amps were fully balanced, they would be swearing up and down how much better fully balanced is.

Complementary balanced does have benefits, but mostly, it's used for commercial/pro/industrial applications that use +4dBu input signal level and 600 Ohm input impedance. It was never intended for consumer use. If you look into it, the S/N ratio is lower, the shield is floated above chassis ground potential and the signal can be transmitted over extreme distances, but again, that's not needed in the typical consumer system. Also, the S/N ratio with balanced is kind of a moot point, considering how much more quiet consumer equipment is now, compared with 25-30 years ago, when 85dB was great if it was line level. Phono S/N was often only about 65dB.