Center, huh yeah! What is it good for?

[KEW]

Surprisingly, my follow up is not "Absolutely Nothing"!*

However, like most audio questions, it depends...

I have been using Paradigm Signature S-2's for my mains with a phantom center (as in no center) for my HT.
I always wondered if I was missing out on anything by not having a center. Dialog is clear and I've never really felt an issue. The cost of a Paradigm Signature Series center is beyond my desire to find out.

About 6 months ago, I picked up a pair of Energy RC-10's from Fry's when they were on sale for $220. They are great speakers at $220 and when Fry's put them (and the RC-LCR center) back on sale, I quickly set up for A-B comparison to see how close their timbre was to that of the Sig-2's. It was close enough that buying a RC-LCR for $220 (with a 30 day return policy) was worth trying.

My interest was two fold:
1) Did the RC-LCR mate acceptably with my Sig-2's and
2) Did having a center offer any significant benefit.

Question 1 is TBD. I just finished watching Star Trek Into Darkness (thanks Zieglj, for the suggestion) and it did nothing to catch my attention as sounding wrong, but I am too ADD to watch a good movie and remember I am trying to listen carefully! There were places where the center seemed to call attention to itself. I am not sure if that is a fault of the speaker or simply a result of my never having a center before. I am waiting for my copy of "The Fugitive" to arrive ($7 and change at Amazon for BluRay). Wayne Pflughaupt suggested a specific scene for evaluating the sound panning from main to center. I will follow up on this thread in a few days after I get the chance to listen to this section.

For Question 2, I set up level matched to A-B between the pair of RC-10's and the Sig-2's plus RC-LCR.
Based on this experience I will add a center (whether it is RC-LCR, or not).

This is, of course, purely subjective opinion, but from my observations, I feel:
1) A center would be of little benefit if your mains are close to and equally spaced from the TV screen. I experienced no significant increase (nor decrease) in clarity of sound.
2) If you have a setup like mine, you would benefit substantially from a center! (see photo below). My listening position is about 12 feet back and perpendicular to 10" in from the right edge of the 60" TV.
It is pretty obvious, but when I run just the mains, the sound is centered right of the screen. Adding a center does a great job of puling the sound back to the screen. In some ways, the LCR sounded worse because it narrowed the sound-stage, but for the purposes of HT, it was beneficial.
Again, I believe if the right speakers and room were symmetric with the left (equally close in with a side wall to match) adding a center would have done very little.

My observations are probably a no-brainer for many of you, but I figure there are plenty who are uncertain about the wisdom of spending money on a center and I hope to help them decide.

As said above this is based on my specific subjective experience. I welcome any comments to help define the potential benefits of a center.

(7.5' left of door, 4' doorway, 4' right of door)

Please excuse the wires and chaos, I don't have in-wall wiring for the extra fronts and subs, or 2nd receiver to TV!

* Reference to classic Edwin Starr hit

 

[rojo]

One obvious benefit of a center channel is independent volume control for dialog. The other day I upgraded my sound card driver on my HTPC and it defaulted back to a stereo config. I watched a few episodes of Scandal without realizing it, and found I was struggling to discern some of the dialog, especially whispered dialog; that I had to turn my system volume up louder than usual to understand in some places. As soon as I thought to check my speaker config and change it back to 5.1, it was night and day difference, and I was able to return the master volume to lower levels while keeping dialog elevated.

 

[DD66000]

If good quality L/R speakers are used and everything is symmetrically laid out, including your seat being dead center then a center speaker is not adding much.
But if there are two or more viewers, then the center is needed so the people sitting off-center hear the dialogue from center of the screen, instead of from the left or right.

 

[KEW]

Okay, finally getting back to this.
I spent lots of time listening to the Energy RC-LCR, then reconfigured to compare LCR vs RC-10.
The RC-LCR generally did fine blending with the Paradigm Sig-2, I never noticed any places where it really offended me. I should add that my audio expectations for HT may be comparatively low. I only integrated my audio system with the TV about 2 years ago, don't watch much and still delighted not to be listening to the TV speakers!.
However, comparing the RC-LCR to the RC-10, the RC-10 is simply a better sounding speaker and a better timbre match with the Sig-2's.
I expected the RC-LCR to be more dynamic with the dual woofers, however; the RC-10 matched it for everything I threw at it. I played it loud to try and reach the RC-10's limits, but it seems a quality set of drivers and took what I threw at it without sound degradation. I think it is understood that the LCR will go louder, but we are talking extremely loud before this would be realized. I could tell no difference in the mid bass, but the RC-10's image like crazy and had much better mid-highs. Love the look of the dual 2" drivers in the LCR's, but not a fan of the sound!

So, I am adding an RC-10 for my center and returned the LCR's to Fry's.

I was disappointed by Frys. The gal in returns acted like it was a major inconvenience to take the speakers back. It was... because I had packed them as new and she had to unpack to inspect, but if Frys chooses to have a 30 day return policy, they should train their people to be gracious in its execution.

I have another pair (RC-70's) to return to them. Think I'll place them in the car with throw pillows in between and put all of the packing mat'ls, etc in the boxes. It will save me the time of repacking and waiting while she undoes my efforts! Not to mentioned that she used one of the 2" drivers as a grip point for lifting the speaker out of the box!

 

[Cos]

My initial observations is trying to match a Energy Center with a pair of Paradigm Signatures, I wouldn't suggest it.

Second observation, having had a complete 7.1 Paradigm Studio 100v5 in the past, I could definitely see the advantage of having a center, my suggestion is not just level match different speakers, but use speakers that match build quality and materials match. The CC690 I had for a center was a marked improvement in theater presentation and sound quality.

Additional observations: DD660000 & Rojo's comments are accurate. The room setup is less than ideal, the advantage of separating the dialogue is definitely a benefit. It can also give the room a more surround effect.

I currently run my Golden Ear Triton Ones and a Phantom center, it still sound very good, but as soon as their newer, larger center channel comes out, I will be adding it to my home theater room, because IMO the center channel significantly improves SQ on home theater if implemented properly.

 

[DD66000]

KEW, Rojo,
neither of your systems layouts come even close to symmetrical.
And having to place speakers right in the corners certainly screws up the soundstage.
And as for the horizontal LCR, way too close to both the LF and side wall. Not surprising the vertical RC-10 was better.
But I suspect if the LCR had been placed vertically, would have been an improvement. Especially since you have the vertical space below the screen.
I have the same problem with a doorway being in the way. But as my door is a front door and not needed (we use the side slider for entry), I spread out my system across the entire room. Not a symmetrical room, but it works.

 

[slipperybidness]

My initial observations is trying to match a Energy Center with a pair of Paradigm Signatures, I wouldn't suggest it.

Second observation, having had a complete 7.1 Paradigm Studio 100v5 in the past, I could definitely see the advantage of having a center, my suggestion is not just level match different speakers, but use speakers that match build quality and materials match. The CC690 I had for a center was a marked improvement in theater presentation and sound quality.

Additional observations: DD660000 & Rojo's comments are accurate. The room setup is less than ideal, the advantage of separating the dialogue is definitely a benefit. It can also give the room a more surround effect.

I currently run my Golden Ear Triton Ones and a Phantom center, it still sound very good, but as soon as their newer, larger center channel comes out, I will be adding it to my home theater room, because IMO the center channel significantly improves SQ on home theater if implemented properly.

Yeah, I just run the Supersat 50-C as my center for my T2s. It does the job, but it's not on par with the T2s. I'm not really concerned about it, mainly because I don't have the room for a bigger center anyway (not without some major rearranging, new furniture, and effort).

But, the T2s image so well anyway (granted, I have a fairly symmetrical setup), that a know for a fact that I don't even "need" a center channel.

When listening to 2 channel music, more than once, the GF thought that the center was also on

 

[3db]

Assuming that your listening position is 20 degrees and less from center, the only benefit of a center channel will give is what Rojo stated in his post in that you can independently raise the center channel volume with raising the mains. However, since you mentioned that your dialogue was already clear, then that point becomes moot in your case.

The idea of a center channel is to anchor the dialogue to the display when the seating position is far enough from off center that localization to a main speaker comes into play.

 

[KEW]

My initial observations is trying to match a Energy Center with a pair of Paradigm Signatures, I wouldn't suggest it.

Actually, I started this process by having a pair of Signature S-2's and A-B'ing them against a pair of RC-10's (with Audyssey engaged). The RC-10's are impressive, particularly because the tweeter doesn't induce the fatigue I normally experience with aluminum domes. There is a slightly different sound on metal - chimes, triangles, etc. but it is very subtle. I did not detect differences between the two speakers in the most sensitive human voice range.

Although I determined the RC-10 is simply a better speaker than the Energy RC-LCR, using the LCR as a center with the Signatures for right and left was an improvement for me because it anchored the sound closer to the display. However, the center did call attention to itself.

I am now using the RC-10 as a center and quite happy with it. I am familiar with the differences in timbre between the Sig's and the RC-10's from months of playing with A-B'ing them (level matched, instant switching), they are quite similar (with Audyssey - because that is how I use them). I suspect I will eventually find 5.1 content that reveals the difference, I haven't found it yet!
If you are ever going to be in the Atlanta area, give me a PM and you can check it out!

 

[KEW]

KEW, Rojo,
neither of your systems layouts come even close to symmetrical.
And having to place speakers right in the corners certainly screws up the soundstage.
And as for the horizontal LCR, way too close to both the LF and side wall. Not surprising the vertical RC-10 was better.
But I suspect if the LCR had been placed vertically, would have been an improvement. Especially since you have the vertical space below the screen.
I have the same problem with a doorway being in the way. But as my door is a front door and not needed (we use the side slider for entry), I spread out my system across the entire room. Not a symmetrical room, but it works.

I should have been more clear, I compared the RC-LRC directly to the RC-10 in an A-B setup (level matched, instant switching) with the LRC positioned vertically. In other words, I was wondering what the LCR had to offer as mains compared to the RC-10. I was specifically wondering if the extra mid-bass driver would further improve the impact of the RC-10 (which is already very good). I found that the LCR gave no improvement for impact. But furthermore, the RC-10 had much better imaging, depth, and just sounded better on all material. That is rare. Usually, when comparing speakers, I will prefer one to the other, but I can still identify music that sounds better on the other speaker.

My subjective conclusion is that the RC-LCR is simply not so good a speaker as the RC-10 is (despite costing twice as much)!

I am a fan of the RC-10. While I do prefer the Signature S-2's, for anyone willing to wait 3-6 months for the next Fry's sale ($230/pr), the RC-10's get excellent SQ at a fraction of the price!

 

[tyhjaarpa]

I myself found center to be a big improvement as it makes dialogs clearer and makes sound centered to screen. Also helps quite a lot with surround features. And like mentioned already you can set center volume to what ever level you prefer.

My mains are evenly on sides of my TV and center is centered under TV and main listening position is on center of TV as well.

 

[lsiberian]

The simple solution mount the TV on the wall and get another matching speaker for the center.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

The simple solution mount the TV on the wall and get another matching speaker for the center.

Only problem with that is that with many tower speakers you would lift TV way too high from optimal viewing angles to make it possible, with bookshelf speakers it is possible how ever. Getting center from same speaker line is much better option if it is available, if not, then it will be little bit more tricky.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

... the only benefit of a center channel will give is what Rojo stated in his post in that you can independently raise the center channel volume with raising the mains. However, since you mentioned that your dialogue was already clear, then that point becomes moot in your case...

A very big advantage for sure.

Anther advantage is that you are unburdening your main Left & Right Speakers and Amplifiers, hence reducing distortion to them?

The dialogue may currently be "clear", but it is the best possible sound? Could the clarity be further enhanced ?

 

[3db]

The dialogue may currently be "clear", but it is the best possible sound? Could the clarity be further enhanced ?

It depends on your left/right mains quality. When I was selling my last house, I had to remove my center channel and I never missed it in terms of clarity of sound. The towers anchored the sound to the TV. Keep in mind though that my listening position was never greater than 20 degrees off center. That's been my experience and is the reason why I down play the role of the center channel when all listening positions are below 20 degrees off center so localization of one of mains come into play.

 

[rojo]

The dialogue may currently be "clear", but it is the best possible sound? Could the clarity be further enhanced ?

You could always hire live performers. Selection of content would be somewhat limited, though. :>

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It depends on your left/right mains quality. When I was selling my last house, I had to remove my center channel and I never missed it in terms of clarity of sound. The towers anchored the sound to the TV. Keep in mind though that my listening position was never greater than 20 degrees off center. That's been my experience and is the reason why I down play the role of the center channel when all listening positions are below 20 degrees off center so localization of one of mains come into play.

Good points.

However, the Center Channel gets about 50% of the soundtrack.

As good as the main L/R speakers & Amps may be, I think relieving them of this burden may theoretically reduce distortion on both the Main L/R speakers and amps.

 

[KEW]

Good points.

However, the Center Channel gets about 50% of the soundtrack.

As good as the main L/R speakers & Amps may be, I think relieving them of this burden may theoretically reduce distortion on both the Main L/R speakers and amps.

This would not typically matter unless you were pushing your amps or speakers into higher distortion levels. Most people listen at levels that do not challenge their gear.

 

[3db]

Good points.

However, the Center Channel gets about 50% of the soundtrack.

As good as the main L/R speakers & Amps may be, I think relieving them of this burden may theoretically reduce distortion on both the Main L/R speakers and amps.

As long as the amp/speakers are not over driven, there will be no distortion. Remember, I went through a practical life experience with this. To add to this, in that same house that I sold, I forgot to turn on the center channel and I only happened against it through the menu setup of the AVR after re-running YPAO and looking at the results and I found no setting for the center channel. I must have been missing the center channel for about a month without noticing it not being there.

 

[lsiberian]

Only problem with that is that with many tower speakers you would lift TV way too high from optimal viewing angles to make it possible, with bookshelf speakers it is possible how ever. Getting center from same speaker line is much better option if it is available, if not, then it will be little bit more tricky.

Time to break out the saw and shorten some speaker.