Advice on buying used speakers

[LightningMike]

First, I must confess that I'm not an audiophile (at least not in this stage of my life), but my wife and I (both retired) enjoy watching both movies and decent TV series. We're both older, and while my hearing is 100%, her's is probably 75% LOL and she sometimes wears a prescribed hearing aid. We have a piecemeal system that was a hand-me-down from our son, and I'm afraid the speakers are giving us listening issues. The setup is as follows; AVR is a Yamaha HTR-5063, Bose Acoustimass 5 Series 1 over/under cubes and the Bose powered "sub" which I suspect is really just a couple of woofers. The center channel is an Infinity Sterling which is amazingly close to their current center channel RC252 as far as specs go. The "rear" or surround speakers are Bose 101 Music Monitors mounted on metal stands. Our room layout is somewhat fixed (19 X 12) and the TV (Mits DLP 65") has to sit diagonally in one corner because of other furniture. Its not ideal by any stretch of the imagination but we have to live with it.

So the complaint is that while all the booming sounds are there, the clarity of the spoken word leaves a lot to be desired probably because the Bose cubes don't feature a tweeter. And the Bose cubes are mounted to the ceiling on their tillable, swivel mounts so I always thought we could compensate but I don't think this setup will ever work right in this room. So I'm thinking that I should dump the Bose speakers and get some towers that will "fit" into the narrow space between the corners of the TV/TV Stand and the bookshelves. I've heard the old saying... "No highs, No lows, it must be Bose" so many times I've lost count LOL. But I figure thats the main culprit. I probably have 10" width at the narrowest point (front) of the TV cabinet, so I'm thinking towers that are roughly 8"-9" wide could be placed alongside the TV and do a far better job of projecting clean speech and whatever towards the opposite side of the room where we normally sit.

Like most retired people, we've got lots of different priorities and we both have other outside interests so spending any serious money on speakers is not in the cards. More likely, I'd like to find someone selling a _used_ pair of Infinity, Polk, Klipsch towers and perhaps a complimenting center channel speaker that will give us the clarity that we'd like to have. So I've been scouring CL/eBay to see whats available, preferably here in New England as we live in Western Mass. No doubt I can sell the Bose on CL and that'll help defer some cost, but I'm wondering if the three brands I mentioned are worth chasing?

So I'm curious to hear opinions about whether I'm on the right track to resolving my "problem". BTW, I have thought about a sound bar even a passive one, PITA with the four (4) Media sources that all need HDMI connections so I'll stick with the AVR/Sep Speaker setup, just like to un-muddle it.

Mike

 

[zieglj01]

Look at Philharmonic Audio AA speakers - good sound made for
the budget minded - and will be way better than what you have.
http://philharmonicaudio.com/

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

What you describing is a very known issue with tiny Bose speaker and their "sub"
It has massive part of lower mid-range missing in action. Sub is also boomy another known issue.
While shopping for used deals could be interesting and challenging - I agree with Z - AA speakers line is as good or much better than you could buy used for same money. btw: Don't get towers - in your room - you could just get 2 pairs of bookshelves and 1 center - $430 + shipping for awesome 5.0 - I don't think you could get used deal as good as this one

Option b) Wave Crest HLV-1 speakers - only drawback is they don't have dedicated horizontal speaker. If you could place center vertically - it would be best way.

As for Receiver - Keep existing Yamaha - it's good .

You will need a new sub. This and other AV forums sometimes in "For sell" sections there good deals on used subs. Brands to look for are: HSU (VTF series), SVS and Outlaw

 

[Seth=L]

I'm an avid used shopper and have gotten a hold of some pretty good speakers for very little money, many, many times. It's not very difficult to do. You're on the right track so to speak in terms of where you're looking, but honing your used shopping prowess will take time and dedication. Take the time to enrich yourself with knowledge on items you find on eBay and CL by doing ample research on those particular items.

Now before I receive backlash from the rest of the forum here I will say that if you can hear them first before buying them this will help keep you from making a purchase you'll later regret. Buying something sight unseen and unheard is risky business, especially when buying at market value or even retail. Now if you're comfortable with experimenting, that's another story. I'll buy, typically at market value or less, and if I end up being unsatisfied, I'll return the item to market to recover my initial investment or even turn a profit if it's possible and use those profits in order to fund another purchase. It may seem complex, but if it's something you'll enjoy doing, it can be fun.

Now I realize not everyone thinks this way, or wants to spend time doing it. I think most would rather get something, set it, and forget it.

All this said, most anything from Klipsch, Polk, Infinity, etc etc... will provide much better performance than the Bose dual cube speakers. I'm not going to recommend any particular brand or product as I don't have any idea what kind of "sound" you'll be looking for. Your wife may have ideas as well, so definitely make her a part of it.

If you're going to buy used, read reviews, check used market values (completed listings on eBay for example, or trending prices if no completed listings are available), even go listen to new speakers from some of these companies and get an idea of what kind of sonic signature their products trend towards which may aid you in eliminating or adding new brands you didn't consider before. This is not to imply all products from a particular brand will sound the same, but it's no uncommon for them to be very similar.

You can gut this fish many ways, I hope I've offered some level of insight that helps your decision.

 

[herbu]

the clarity of the spoken word leaves a lot to be desired probably because the Bose cubes don't feature a tweeter. And the Bose cubes are mounted to the ceiling

Mike,
1) If you have a Center speaker, the huge majority of voices will come from that. No matter how good your Front L/Rs are, a lousy Center will mean lousy voices.

2) If you don't have a Center, your AVR will send the Center channel to your Front L/Rs. So without a Center, the quality of your L/Rs becomes more important for voices.

3) You mention installing towers or something new for the L/Rs. How about the Center? If your current one is ceiling mounted, do you have room for a normal bookshelf size Center?

My wife and I are kinda in your same boat. Getting older and voices are harder to understand. Good speakers make a HUGE difference. So if voices on TV/Movies are your primary concern, and budget is a consideration, I would suggest the following...
First: Replace your Center with a very good one.
Next: Replace your Front L/Rs
Next: Replace your subwoofer
Next: Replace your surrounds

It could be you are satisfied after the first step, and stop there. If you also listen to music, you may want to proceed to the L/Rs. The sub and surrounds can come if you find yourself amazed and hooked on how much better audio can really be w/ good stuff, and decide to go down that road, (with us).

 

[slipperybidness]

You gotta give us a budget to work with!

Also, for used gear, try audiogon.com

Or, check out accessories4less.com for B stock and open box.

 

[markw]

Keep in mind that with used gear it's catch as catch can and, even then, you don't really know if the previous owner abused them. I'd give strong consideration to that Philharmonic suggestion.

 

[slipperybidness]

Keep in mind that with used gear it's catch as catch can and, even then, you don't really know if the previous owner abused them. I'd give strong consideration to that Philharmonic suggestion.

You know, I have to agree with you.

For a seasoned veteran, used is a great option and an easy way to save $.

But, for a newb, the used route can be risky, and he probably doesn't know the red-flags and the other more subtle clues to watch out for.

 

[LightningMike]

A lot of good information here, I especially like what Seth had to say. I do have an Infinity center channel speaker which looks pretty much identical to their current C252, here's my specs:

Specifications:
* Frequency Response: 58 Hz - 20 kHz +-3dB
* Sensitivity: 89 dB @ 2.87 volts, 1 meter
* Power Rating: Use w/amps rated between 20 - 150 watts RMS for Center Channel
* Enclosure Type: Acoustic Suspension
* Cabinet Finish: Black Pica
* Crossover Frequency: 4.5 kHz
* Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
* Drivers: Dual 5-1/2" Polyproplene woofers, 1/2" Polycarbonate tweeter.
* Magnetically shielded for video applications.
* Dimensions: 18-1/4" wide, 7" high, 5-1/2" deep.

I brought it over to a friend's house to check it out on his Denon AVR, we substituted it for his Klipsch Quintet CC and it sounded just fine on his setup, much sharper and clear than on mine. In my setup, I have a home-built stand (I am a decent woodworker with a nice woodshop) that is about 60" wide, 20" deep, and about 21" high, rolling on eight round casters. AV equipment (AppleTV, DirecTV, BD-Player, AVR) located on either side behind frameless glass doors, CC pocket in the center under a shallow drawer. I've toyed with the idea of a DIY project, but its probably easier to just buy, because I'd probably build speaker boxes out of walnut or rosewood plywood rather than MDF and it'd take more time and money to do it "my way" LOL.

I thought perhaps keeping the Infinity and dumping the rest would be productive if I could find some nice Infinity towers to compliment the CC. But if I found some well-kept Klipsch towers I have no special attachment to the Infinity... I could most likely find a Klipsch CC as well. And no... I won't buy used what I can't hear, so the first question I ask after whether the speakers advertised are still available is whether they can be demonstrated. The only possible exception to that would be if its a specific model that I have already heard and its a decent deal... I might make an exception. I'm inclined to go with towers mainly because most of their sound is starting at the centerline of the 65" TV and they would be easier to "aim" at our preferred seating setup than bookshelves.

In the past I have dabbled in this stuff, built the Dynaco Tube kit back in the late '60's, had the Thorens TD turntable, Wharfdale monster speakers to listen to my vinyl jazz collection. Moved to a Marantz Quadraradial with the scope and beautiful Pioneer HPM 100's and a Technics single-play turntable, still have that TT hooked up to an old Nikko and some junk speakers to try the vinyls in the basement when my wife isn't bugging me LOL. Sadly, I will probably sell much of that collection on eBay, but I'm a realist and hardly have a spare minute to just sit and listen to music anymore.

Probably the smartest move right now is to remove, photograph, and advertise the Bose setup, I can probably jury-rig something in the interim or revert to the TV speakers LOL. When I have enough posts, I guess I can post a schematic of my room. I'm sorry to say that I don't have a hard/fast budget, but if I can scrape together $500 between pocket money and selling the bose/infinity stuff... that might be it give or take $100. I know that sounds meager but I have other interests that drain me even more.

BTW, I am curious to hear what constitutes red flags to watch out for.

 

[slipperybidness]

If you're good at woodworking and have the time, DIY is definitely a good option!

If I had the skills, I would have ER18s

 

[Swerd]

… I've toyed with the idea of a DIY project, but its probably easier to just buy, because I'd probably build speaker boxes out of walnut or rosewood plywood rather than MDF and it'd take more time and money to do it "my way" LOL.

Speaker boxes are meant to be rigid and inflexible, and any solid hardwood in them is a problem. No matter how well dried, or how well sealed on all sides, solid wood will change dimensions through the year as the humidity changes. It will split. MDF or void-free ply, such as Baltic birch, is preferred. Use veneer to make it look "your way".

I thought perhaps keeping the Infinity and dumping the rest would be productive if I could find some nice Infinity towers to compliment the CC. But if I found some well-kept Klipsch towers I have no special attachment to the Infinity... I could most likely find a Klipsch CC as well.

There are those who like Klipsch speakers, and those who despise them. They are known for sounding unusually bright, and can sound harsh to some listeners. Make extra sure you hear them before buying.

BTW, I am curious to hear what constitutes red flags to watch out for.

Listen to enough speakers to understand your preference between warm speakers (with extra emphasis on bass), neutral speakers (evenly balanced across the audio range), or bright speakers (extra emphasis on the mid and/or treble). There are also speakers with a "hole in the middle" of their sound. Over the years, I developed a strong preference for speakers that lack any noticeable coloration, a neutral sound.

 

[LightningMike]

Just a thought... I'm noticing some speakers like the Fluance's are 4 Ohm and you have to be careful with having enough power to drive them, so would my HTR-5063 be capable of driving a 4 Ohm speaker setup that included CC, Fronts, maybe Surrounds? I'm not sure how a powered sub fits int that equation either.

I mentioned the Fluances because of the excellent reviews they've received. I have no idea where I could hear a pair though.

 

[markw]

That's a very good question. This is all I can find on that receiver.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/htr/htr-5063_black__u/

Usually, most specs tell you at what impedance the power ratings are derived. This one does not.

You might want to check the manual for more info on this. Unless it specifies a four ohm rating, I would be wary.

As for a powered sub, that's a totally different animal since it doesn't feed off the speaker outputs and it's a moot point here.

 

[Swerd]

Just a thought... I'm noticing some speakers like the Fluance's are 4 Ohm and you have to be careful with having enough power to drive them, so would my HTR-5063 be capable of driving a 4 Ohm speaker setup that included CC, Fronts, maybe Surrounds? I'm not sure how a powered sub fits int that equation either.

I mentioned the Fluances because of the excellent reviews they've received. I have no idea where I could hear a pair though.

What model Fluance are you talking about? By any chance, is it the XL7F?

 

[KEW]

I do have an Infinity center channel speaker which looks pretty much identical to their current C252...

I brought it over to a friend's house to check it out on his Denon AVR, we substituted it for his Klipsch Quintet CC and it sounded just fine on his setup, much sharper and clear than on mine.

It would be really nice to see how the center sounds using your receiver in his house (or vice versa). That way, you would determine whether it is your receiver or your room that causes the reduction in sound quality.

 

[LightningMike]

Mark...

Can't seem to easily copy the specs from the PDF file, but in the Audio Section, the Minimum RMS Output Power for Front, Center Surround is as follows:

[USA/Canadian Models]
(1 kHz, 0.9% THD, 8Ω)
Front L/R - 90W/ch
Center - 90W
Surround L/R - 90W/ch
Surround Back L/R - 90W/ch

Dynamic Power (IHF)
Front Speakers 8/6/4/2 Ω - 95/110/130/150W

Dynamic Headroom - 0.23 dB
Input Sensitivity/Input Impedance AV5, etc. - 200 mV/47 kΩ
Max Input Voltage/Output Impedance - AUDIO OUT - 200mV/1.2 kΩ • SUBWOOFER - 1.0 V/1.2 kΩ
Frequency Response AV5 to FRONT - 10 Hz to 100 kHz, +0/-3 dB

Tone Control (Front Speakers)
BASS Boost/Cut +/-10 dB/2 dB at 50 Hz
BASS Turnover Frequency - 350 Hz
TREBLE Boost/Cut +/-10 dB/2 dB at 20 kHz
TREBLE Turnover Frequency - 3.5 kHz

There's more specs but it deals with Units marketed in Asia/Europe not USA/Canada and other stuff like Signal to Noise Ratio of 100 dB or more, don't know how important the other stuff is LOL. Its all greek to me. I'm thinking since they list 8/6/4/2 Ω I guess I could run 4 Ohm speakers up front and if I added Surrounds... they would have to be 4 Ohms as well right?

This Receiver was decently rated but I'm wondering about the power. And yes... I had read the reviews of the Fluance XL7F but that got me wondering about the Surround System SXHTB they offer for $399.99 and that is spec'd as an 8 Ohm setup.

Also wondering about Bi-Amp possibilities. I really have to step back LOL and slap myself hard in the face. I'm having crazy thoughts.

Mike

 

[Seth=L]

Red Flags to Watch Out for When Buying Used Speakers​

On older speakers parts may be worn out or damaged, so review the condition.​

• Dry rot: Foam surrounds get dry and fall apart from years of use or climate changes
• Crossover failure: Most common failures in crossovers originate in capacitors. This problem may not be readily apparent, but the speaker will not perform as well as it should. Be wary of speakers over 20 years old and consider it a strong possibility that the crossovers need attention.
• Tweeter harshness: Many tweeters are ferofluid cooled, this substance will dry and cause the tweeter to have thermal overload resulting in unpleasant harshness and possibly failure from prolonged use. This mostly applies to speakers over 20 years old.
• Abuse: As mentioned above you cannot know how the speakers have been treated by their previous owners. A speaker could look cosmetically fine but been abused by underpowering or overpowering them.
• Sellers: If you're buying from an individual and you can buy from them in person request that you be able to hear both speakers playing at the same time. If the seller knows something is wrong with the speakers they may try to play them one at a time so you don't realize they sound different from one another. Make sure you're not buying modified speakers either. Sellers may blow a driver and decide to replace it with a non OEM one that is not only inferior but not the same parameter of the original. I would never buy a used speaker without all the original drivers or OEM.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Red Flags to Watch Out for When Buying Used Speakers​

On older speakers parts may be worn out or damaged, so review the condition.​

• Dry rot: Foam surrounds get dry and fall apart from years of use or climate changes
• Crossover failure: Most common failures in crossovers originate in capacitors. This problem may not be readily apparent, but the speaker will not perform as well as it should. Be wary of speakers over 20 years old and consider it a strong possibility that the crossovers need attention.
• Tweeter harshness: Many tweeters are ferofluid cooled, this substance will dry and cause the tweeter to have thermal overload resulting in unpleasant harshness and possibly failure from prolonged use. This mostly applies to speakers over 20 years old.
• Abuse: As mentioned above you cannot know how the speakers have been treated by their previous owners. A speaker could look cosmetically fine but been abused by underpowering or overpowering them.
• Sellers: If you're buying from an individual and you can buy from them in person request that you be able to hear both speakers playing at the same time. If the seller knows something is wrong with the speakers they may try to play them one at a time so you don't realize they sound different from one another. Make sure you're not buying modified speakers either. Sellers may blow a driver and decide to replace it with a non OEM one that is not only inferior but not the same parameter of the original. I would never buy a used speaker without all the original drivers or OEM.

I strongly suspect OP has mindset of "They don't make them like they used to" and that might be reason for hunt for used speakers, however it may OFTEN be true, but not ALWAYS.
The Philharmonic AA speakers or Wave Crest HLV-1 - both amazing value and quality. After all these Red Flags and you might not be able to catch all of these - Is it really worth time and effort of doing that?

P.s: The flatulence brand mentioned above - they make decent Looking speakers, they almost look like real deal and price is tempting too, but if you want high Quality - I recommend to stick to 2 options I listed above.

 

[Seth=L]

After all these Red Flags and you might not be able to catch all of these - Is it really worth time and effort of doing that?

Speakers are more durable and reliable than most electronics, despite the mechanical stresses that they go through. I've personally only had a small handful of bad apples out of hundreds of used speakers. Granted others mileage may vary, and I understand and appreciate the merits of buying new.

I buy most all my stuff used, clothes, televisions, computers, audio, movies, music, furniture, etc. Obviously certain items are unhygienic to by used such as perishables and under garments, and I don like used shoes either. The end result for me is that I have too much stuff, but moderation is a cruel mistress.

 

[LightningMike]

No offense to the owners but other than a few individuals' "reviews" I'm still searching for a few more detailed and unbiased reviews of the Philharmonic Affordable Accuracy towers/center. Can anyone point to a few links?