2015, A Loudspeaker Odyssey

D

Dr. Bob

Junior Audioholic
In case anyone finds it useful, here’s the story of my recent speaker search.

My Snell K-III bookshelf speakers, which I’ve enjoyed for about the past 20 years, finally gave up the ghost a few months ago. The foam gaskets around the woofer were so old they just started disintegrating. I knew I could repair them pretty easily, but, much as I loved them, after 20 years I thought it would be fun to find something new. Little did I suspect the fateful journey that decision would lead me on…

The Snells cost $550 back in the previous century, but as I read about the amazing improvements in speaker technology, I began to think I might be able to find something as good or better for even less money. (Yes, I’m a cheapskate.) One guide that soon became my go-to source for recommendations was the Stereophile Recommended Components list, as well as their individual speaker reviews.

A few words about my system. I decided years ago that the bookshelf/subwoofer combination was the way to go. Most towers don’t really give you full range, so you need the subwoofer anyway. And decent bookshelf speakers are perfectly fine for midrange and treble, for much lower cost than comparable towers. Also, they’re much easier to find space for. I run these with a Yamaha receiver/amp that’s also 20 years old. Together with a pair of Klipsch surrounds that I picked up for $150 when Circuit City went out of business (cheapskate), these also serve as the sound for my TV. So much for my “system.”

Stereophile’s Stephen Mejias gushed about the Wharfedale Diamond 10.1. I had never heard of Wharfedale, a British company, but it seemed to have an excellent reputation over there. To my surprise, Best Buy carries the Wharfedales. For $350, and with Best Buy’s generous return policy, how could I go wrong? Yes, these were in Stereophile’s D category (which had an ominous sound to my professor’s ears), but the introduction to the recommendation insisted, “Remember: It's possible to put together a musically satisfying, truly high-end system around any of our Class D and E recommendations.” So I went ahead and ordered the Wharfedales.

When they arrived and I unpacked them, I was amazed by their beauty. I was also amazed by their size: tiny compared to my Snells. Yet the bass was full and resonant – easily as good as the Snells. Unfortunately, they were severely lacking in treble. One of my favorite test tracks is “How Deep Is the Ocean?” from Lynne Arriale’s great jazz album, When You Listen. On my Snells, the different cymbals each have their own sound. On the Wharfedales, they all just sounded like a clash. On the Snells, rim shots sound like rim shots and when the drummer hits his sticks together you can hear the wood. On the Wharfedales, I just heard clicks.

Oh, well, I thought, and returned them to Best Buy. Next up was the Definitive Technology Studio Monitor 45. At $398/pair, these were only slightly higher than the Wharfedales. And Stereophile rated them “High Class D, bordering on Class C,” which put them in the range of speakers costing much more. Best Buy carries these, too, so again, why not?

The DefTechs, too, were amazingly small: not much bigger than the Wharedales, though not nearly so attractive. And again I was amazed by the bass that came from this tiny speaker. How could a 5-1/4” woofer produce bass that was better than the 8” woofer on my Snells? The wonders of modern technology! In fact, the DefTechs made me aware of what I had been missing with my Snells: a mid-bass and midrange that was clear and taut. The DefTechs passed the Lynne Arriale test (great cymbals, drums, and percussion sounds, realistic upright bass), the Suzanne Vega test (female vocals), and the all-important Tinsmith test. Tinsmith is a local folk group made up of some good friends of mine, Rowan Corbett and Brooke Parkhurst. We are very sensitive to human voices, so listening to a voice you know well is a terrific test of your sound system. (Tinsmith also has very high production quality on their recordings for a band you never heard of.) Closing my eyes, I felt like Rowan and Brooke were standing right there in the room with me.

The DefTechs also did a great job with movies. Rewatching Jumanji, the mysterious drums came through with startling clarity, as if from nowhere. Spoken voices were also very natural-sounding. Satisfied, I recycled the boxes.

Too soon, as it turned out. As I worked my way through my CD collection, I began to encounter some discs where the DefTechs sounded shrill and jumbled. I also began to notice listening fatigue. Orchestral pieces were the worst, they just sounded like mush. I don’t listen to a lot of classical music, but when I do I want to be able to enjoy it. I slowly came to realize that my speaker odyssey was not yet over. Too late to return the DefTechs, I planned to move them downstairs to upgrade the speakers on our little Onkyo shelf CD player, and get something really good for the entertainment center. After all, these speakers should be able to last me another 20 years, right?

To be continued....
 
D

Dr. Bob

Junior Audioholic
A Speaker Odyssey, Part II

The next step up seemed to be in the region of $800-$1000, roughly corresponding to Stereophile’s Class C. Given how great the DefTechs had done for a mere $400, surely I would be able to find something terrific for twice the money! In this range there were a lot of terrific options: PSB Imagine Mini (and B), GoldenEar Aon 2, B&W 686, Martin Logan, Paradigm Studio 10 – Wow! And then there was the KEF LS50. A little more expensive at $1500 (almost four times the price of the DefTechs), this was a bit above my price range, but Stereophile intriguingly gave it an unbelievable A rating – something usually reserved for speakers costing $5000 and up!

Having been disappointed with the “read reviews and buy” strategy, I decided that this time I was going to listen to these speakers for myself before plunking any more money down. I began researching local AV stores that carried these lines. I was a little bit surprised that such stores still existed. The Myer-Emco chain where I bought my Snells went out of business years ago, and I thought most other such stores probably had, too. The temptation to listen in the store, then go online and find the same thing for less is very large (for us cheapskates especially). Between that and places like Best Buy I figured there was no room left for the small stores. Fortunately, I was wrong. I found Evolution AV and IQ Home Entertainment in northern Virginia, near my work. Evolution AV listed KEF and Paradigm, and IQ carried a bunch of the others on my short list.

Instead of working my way up from the bottom, I decided to go listen to the KEFs and whatever else I could find at Evolution first. Then I’d have a basis for comparison when I listened to the more affordable stuff. I was a little worried that I’d fall in love with the KEFs and want to buy them on the spot, but I thought my cheapskate tendencies would prevent that.

Dennis at Evolution AV was very nice. He set up the KEF LS50s and left me free to listen on my own. “Take your time.” The LS50s were larger than I had expected. I was expecting something resembling a desktop speaker – in fact, on some discussion board I had been told that the LS50s were strictly a near-field monitor. Actually, they are quite large and massive. They have a unique and unusual look, with that orange eye like the eye of Sauron staring at you. At first I was thrilled with the sound. Kate Bush sounded incredible on Aerial, and Lynne’s piano sounded very natural and clear. But Sting’s voice sounded kind of thin, and Gil Shaham’s violin on The Four Seasons sounded positively shrill. Moving on to Holst’s The Planets on Deutsche Grammophon, I heard a soundstage like I’d never experienced. With my eyes closed I could almost see the whole orchestra spread out before me. But again – that shrillness. Brass instruments and strings sounded unnatural, and cymbals almost screamed at me. After all the glowing reviews I had read of these speakers, I almost couldn’t believe what my ears were telling me. I should say that there was a very nice, high-end CD player and amplifier there – it certainly wasn’t an issue with the electronics. Well, this is why everyone says, “Listen for yourself!” There’s no point in buying a Stereophile A-rated speaker if it doesn’t sound good to me.

I asked Dennis about the Paradigm Studio 10s. He said they carried the Signature line, but not the Studios. “Why would we carry something that was less good?” He offered me the Revel Performa M105s. At $1500, these were exactly the same price as the KEFs, but I had never come across Revel so far in my reading. I liked the Revel sound better than the KEFs – I didn’t hear the shrillness I heard from the KEFs – but I felt the soundstage was little pinched compared to the KEFs. I was ready to move on.

At IQ they had whole array of bookshelf speakers spread out along one wall, and a set-up where they could easily switch from one pair to the next. The offerings were: B&W CM1, Martin Logan (I forget the model), Aon 2, Aon 3, and Polk RTiA1. I was most excited to hear the Aon 2’s. GoldenEar is made in Baltimore, which is practically next door, and the Aons had gotten rave reviews in Stereophile and elsewhere. I liked the idea of supporting a local business, and I liked the unusual pyramidal shape of the Aons. However, I didn’t like their sound at all. The bass was overblown, worse, it sounded muddy. In short, I wasn’t impressed by any of the speakers I heard there. Actually, the Polks stood out more than any of the others, but I was looking for something at a higher level than the DefTechs, which at $325 I was pretty sure the Polks weren’t.

I still wanted to listen to the Paradigms, but the only other dealer in my area was in the process of moving to a new location. They were perfectly happy to sell me a pair, but if I wanted to listen to them I would have to wait until the New Year. (Moving to a new location the week before Christmas? Seriously?) I had read a remark on a discussion board from another DC-area resident who had gone to the same 2 stores, then to JS Audio in Bethesda, Maryland, where he had fallen in love with the Dynaudio Excite X14s. At $1500, these were the same price as the KEFs and Revels. By this time I was reconciled to paying that much if that was what it took to get something that sounded as good as my old Snells. After all, I reasoned, if you spread it out over 20 years, it only comes to $75 a year. We pay more than that every month for phone and internet. Surely good sound was worth a bit of investment.

JS Audio is without a doubt a “high-end” store, and I was clearly asking to listen to by far the most inexpensive speaker they sold. Nonetheless, the salesman was very pleasant; he set up the X14s with a McIntosh system that you could use to stun an elephant and left me to myself. Long story short: these sounded terrible. Shrill and grating, I got listening fatigue after about 15 minutes. I wouldn’t take these if you gave them to me for free. The lesson, again: listen for yourself.
 
D

Dr. Bob

Junior Audioholic
A Speaker Odyssey, Part III

A week later I went back to Evolution AV to listen to the Revels some more. Instead of toeing in the speakers toward the listening position, this time I pointed them straight ahead. This seemed to open out the soundstage, but now I was having tone problems: they sounded too bright. Hmm. Just to check, I had Dennis set up the KEFs again for me. There’s a strong psychological component to listening to music, and I wanted to give these a fair trial. Nope – still shrill on the violins and vocals.

What to do now? At a party at a friend’s house I had noticed a new set of speakers from NHT, another company I had never heard of. I asked if I could give them a listen some time, and he offered me the run of the house one day when they were out – nice! His system was the Super Ones, with an NHT subwoofer. I liked the sound OK – I didn’t hear any of the shrillness I had heard with the supposedly more “accurate” speakers – but I was looking for something more refined than the Super Ones. After reading some glowing reviews, I decided to try out the Classic 3s: $900 from NHT direct. They offer a 30 day return policy, with return shipping paid for. Why not?

It took 2 weeks for them to arrive, so half my review period was already gone. I started playing music on them, trying not to pay too much attention to the sound, as most speaker require a break-in period before they really start to sound good. (At least, this is what some people say. Others think it’s all a myth. I’m sort of agnostic, but I didn’t want to make any snap judgments based on possibly faulty data.) My first impressions were pretty positive. My jazz CDs sounded good, with crisp percussion sounds and reasonable verisimilitude to the upright bass and the piano. After a week I figured they should be mostly broken in, so I started paying more attention. There is a definite over-emphasis in the bass, which you can see in the frequency plot in the Stereophile review (linked at the NHT page for the Classic 3. By the way, I never look at the graphs before I listen to speakers: I don’t want to be influenced by what I think I should be hearing, so that I don’t pay attention to what I’m actually hearing.) This wasn’t a big deal – I could always turn the bass knob down on my amp. I went back and forth for a few days, at times thinking they sounded pretty darn good, and then finding CDs where the sound was not so appealing. Finally, up against my 30 day return limit, I decided to send them back. A couple things tipped the scales.

· Watching Orphan Black, I found I had to turn the bass knob down almost to 7 o’clock in order not to overwhelmed by the bass in the soundtrack.

· On closer listening, I found the upright bass on jazz CDs sounded very loose and undefined, as though the bass was strung with rubber bands.

· My all-time favorite jazz CDs are Keith Jarrett’s solo piano works. On the NHTs, the upper registers of the piano had a sort of telephoney quality, and the bass notes were muddy and hard to hear.

That last one was a deal-killer: if Keith doesn’t sound good, there’s no point in having a stereo system at all. (The return process through NHT was very easy and painless.)

One more store to check out: Gramophone, in Columbia, Maryland, offered the B&W 686, the GoldenEar Aon 2 (I thought these deserved a try in a better listening environment), and something called Totem Rainmaker. Another attractive, friendly store, but it took a long time before the salesman was able to get any sound out of any of the speakers on display. Finally, we were getting sound – but only from one speaker. The salesman gave up and moved me to a different room. The Aon 2s still sounded muddy on second listening, and the Totems clearly outclassed the 686s. The salesman offered to let me take them home to give them a try, which I did. At home, however, I found them shrill on some CDs (Sting, for example). They also seemed somewhat uneven in the treble. At times certain notes would stick out from the rest. Not an improvement over the NHTs.

At this point I was feeling kind of stuck. Other well-reviewed brands, such as PSB, Focal, LSA, Monitor Audio, and Epos, just weren’t available at any of the local stores. I checked back at Evolution AV’s website to see what else they listed, as I thought I remembered Dennis saying they carried Focal. Checking the “Specials” page, I saw they were offering their floor model of the Paradigm Signature S1, with stands, for $1550. The S1s are tiny, only 10-1/2” high and 6-3/4” wide. I wondered whether these were really just desktop speakers, but the stands and the reviews seemed to indicate otherwise. The reviews were glowing, as usual. By this time I had noticed that all loudspeaker reviews are EXACTLY THE SAME. They all say “airy, extended highs, taut midrange, good bass extension.” They all say “sound as good as speakers costing thousands of dollars more!” They all say, “My new reference for small bookshelf speakers!” So I knew not to pay too much attention to the reviews. The question was, how would they sound?

Time to cut to the chase: I LOVE THESE SPEAKERS! If you want to know what they sound like, just go read a review. (Any review, of any loudspeaker. Like I said, they’re all the same.) Natural, lifelike sound, airy, extended highs, taut, well-defined midrange and bass, lots of space between the instruments, nothing muddy or shrill. And amazing imaging – a beautifully defined soundstage that easily rivaled the KEFs’, though I didn’t have the opportunity for a direct comparison. And one thing that reviews never mention: these speakers sound great even at low volume. You do the usual trick of tweaking both the bass and treble knobs to the right, and you have lovely full sound that's not too loud for conversation.

I have finally achieved stereo nirvana.

Finally, here at the end, I want to take a moment to marvel at my old Snells. For 20 years, through many changes of technology and across many different sources, they gave me wonderful, natural sound and terrific imaging. I’m amazed that I had to go to a pair of $2300 (list price) speakers to find something that clearly surpassed them. We miss you, Snell.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I LOVE THESE SPEAKERS! If you want to know what they sound like, just go read a review. (Any review, of any loudspeaker. Like I said, they’re all the same.)
ROFLMAO! Ain't it the truth! Stereophile amazes me the most because the subjective review waxes poetic about how splendid they are, then the lab tests reveal they are pathetic.
I have learned that if they compare a speaker to one costing 2-10 times more and say "the bass is not quite as precise, but that is to be expected for a speaker costing 1/5 as much" it really means the bass on this speaker sounds like crap!!!
It does reviewers no favors to say anything bad about a speaker. As long as they give positive reviews, the speaker company buys ad copy from them. Ultimately giving positive reviews is job security for reviewers!
I am glad you stretched your budget and found the deal for the signature series. The Beryllium tweeter is a marvel! The build quality is also quite impressive.
I have listened to the Studio20's and they are good, but when I had them and the Signature 2's side by side with instant switching it was apparent that the Studio's tweeter was not up to the Sig! The studio was fine for extension, but compared to the openness of the Sig 2, a cymbal took on a bacon sizzle sound. I kind of hate to say it that way because the Studio20's are better speakers than that makes them sound. My ear could not detect the sizzle until I had the direct comparison of the Sig. So many speakers you can hear it without needing a comparison. In the mid-bass region, I noticed little difference. Since you never got to hear the studio series, thought I would share my observations.

Cheers,
KEW

PS Thanks for sharing your experience. A good read!
 
Last edited:
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Bob, Thank you for sharing your experience with us. It proves same old point we are trying to instill to every single speakers buyer. The best judge is oneself, and not place too much trust in any 3rd subjective review.

You might have saved some time if you would visit us before your big search for speakers begun.
Reality is despite new materials, fundamentally speakers haven't changed in 20 years or so. Just ask guys like TLS.

some other brands which you didn't had a chance to listen to are: Philarmonitors, Ascend and on high-end Salk and RBH.
Im not surprised that you liked Revel, even though it didn't made the cut.
My personal audio nirvana has been forever spoiled by the "evil" Jim Salk and his Soundscape 8 towers. I have never heard anything sounding quite so good or looking so stunning
 
D

Dr. Bob

Junior Audioholic
Kew, thanks for your comments on the Studio series. I wonder if I would have ended up with them if I'd been able to find them. I feel incredibly lucky to have gotten the Signatures for the price I did. I might never have even listened to them at $2300.

Did you see RJR's review of the Jades? And then John Atkinson, without saying it in so many words, goes "Bob missed this enormous inconsistency in the high frequencies..." Hilarious.

It seems there's a real opening for someone to write honest speaker reviews....

Here's something I forgot to mention in my report, that I'd like your opinion on. One thing I thought was great about the NHTs was how good they sounded off-axis. I love to be able to move around the room, or sit in different chairs, and still hear great sound. With the NHTs, the tonal quality and the imaging was good from almost anywhere.

With the S1s, the sweet spot is much smaller. If I move off to the side, the imaging seems to go haywire.

So my question is, is this always true? I mean, is it true that the more precise the imaging, the worse it is off-axis? Or is this a choice Paradigm made, to only worry about how the speaker sounds in the sweet spot? (Another way to ask the question: are there speakers that sound as good as the S1s even when you're off-axis?)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Which speakers sound the best to us is a highly if not totally subjective thing. For me I always try to make it as objective as possible such as by closing my eyes and compare it to what I remember live orchestras sound like and ignore (within reasons) whether I find the sound bright, warm or somewhere in between. If I can hear distortion then I would stop right there and move on. I compared the Signature S8 side by side with the B&W 804 diamond with classical music that I am very familiar with (in fact my own CDs) and preferred the B&W regardless of whether I base my preference on what I thought was accurate or just the way I like how they sound. I ended up with the Focal but was never able to compare them side by side with the S8 and the B&W. Subjective reviews are fine as long as one knows which parts to ignore. Dr. Bob certain knows by now.:D

Thanks to Dr. Bob for sharing his experience, an excellent read for anyone shopping for speakers.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So my question is, is this always true? I mean, is it true that the more precise the imaging, the worse it is off-axis? Or is this a choice Paradigm made, to only worry about how the speaker sounds in the sweet spot? (Another way to ask the question: are there speakers that sound as good as the S1s even when you're off-axis?)
Probably true to a point. I think trying to have precise imaging in my own room on or off axis is asking too much. I would much prefer speakers that does well in the sweet spot, okay a couple of inches either side would be great. I wouldn't ask for more if it would sacrifice "precise" imaging in the mid point where I sit to enjoy 2 channel music.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
Great review and the reasoning behind your purchase Dr. Bob. A lot of newbies could learn a lot about your protocol for buying a modern speaker. I went thru a similar process, from 2011 to 2014, in choosing my speakers. Basically you can read a ton of reviews and hope for the best or hit the road and hear them for yourself. We all have our tonal preferences and we have to live with them, sort of like choosing a wife. While I disagree with your choice … I chose the LS50’s over the Paradigm Studio 10 & 20’s (v5) after I listened to all 3, side by side … I completely respect it. Enjoy.

BTW, BoredSysAdmin has a very valid point regarding the “Philarmonitors, Ascend and on high-end Salk and RBH” also. I was looking for a 3rd set of speakers and thanks to people here on the site, specifically “Swerd” and “defmoot”, I took a flier on a pair of Salk ST’s and haven’t regretted it for one second. In fact I moved the LS50’s to my 3rd system and the Salk’s now reside in the Fortress of Solitude, with what I consider my 2nd best system.

thanx's for sharing ur thoughts.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Dr. Bob

I enjoyed reading your Speaker Odyssey. And more than once, I winced too :D. Yes, your old Snells were that good. (You might repair them if you still have them.)

I'm familiar with some of those speakers you tried, and after reading your comments about KEF LS50 and NHT, I began to guess that you prefer speakers with an overall neutral tonal balance.

I'm also familiar with some of those audio stores you visited – I think I live nearby you (I'm in Gaithersburg, MD). Overall, you earn an A for diligence, and an A+ for resistance to audio store salesmanship (ie B.S.).

I hesitate to provoke your latent Audophilia Nirvana Nervosa, but if you think you are still curious or unsatisfied, it is not too late to learn about an excellent speaker designer and builder who lives in Bethesda, MD, Dennis Murphy. His designs sell at Philharmonic Audio, Salk Signature Sound, and some can be built as a DIY project (MurphyBlaster Productions). I believe the Philharmonitor bookshelf speaker should have been among those you considered in your search.

Dennis welcomes visitors, and if nothing else, I think you would enjoy speaking to him and seeing what models he has in his home/workshop/salesroom. Look for contact information in the Philharmonic Audio page.

I would also be glad to entertain a visit if you want to hear the two Dennis Murphy designed speakers I have, Salk SongTowers, and the DIY CAOW1 bookshelf speakers. I guarantee I won't try to sell you anything :).
 
Last edited:
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
My Snell K-III bookshelf speakers, which I’ve enjoyed for about the past 20 years, finally gave up the ghost a few months ago.

I never look at the graphs before I listen to speakers: I don’t want to be influenced by what I think I should be hearing,

Finally, here at the end, I want to take a moment to marvel at my old Snells. For 20 years, through many changes of technology and across many different sources, they gave me wonderful, natural sound and terrific imaging. I’m amazed that I had to go to a pair of $2300 (list price) speakers to find something that clearly surpassed them. We miss you, Snell.
Thanks for sharing your speaker journey - it is all about you and what floats your boat

Also, I agree with you - leave the measurements behind, when listening to speakers.
For me, I want to listen to a speaker and find out if it annoys me sound-wise.

I have a pair of the Snell K7 speakers, that use to list for around $1250 - they are some
nice good sounding speakers, and one of a few that has been able to stick around at my
place. All in all you do have to spend some money to beat them.

Enjoy your new audio adventure!
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
There is a definite over-emphasis in the bass...This wasn’t a big deal – I could always turn the bass knob down on my amp.
Any time you're messing with the Tone control, you're adversely affecting the overall sound quality, not just the bass.

I would have used Direct mode (no Tones) but tried to set the XO higher up like 100Hz and just let the subwoofers handle the bass.
 
D

Dr. Bob

Junior Audioholic
The Paradigms are beautifully neutral according to these measurements. I'm still baffled by the shrillness I was hearing from the KEFs and the Dynaudios. These are obviously high-quality speakers that many people really love. The Dynaudios do have a small hump in the treble (6-10kHz in Fig 3). But the KEFs measure very neutral. The NHTs also measure very neutral, except for that hump at 100 Hz, but I didn't hear any harshness from them.

So what gives? I'm a physicist, so it really bugs me not to be able to find something in the data that would explain what I was hearing.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
The Paradigms are beautifully neutral according to these measurements. I'm still baffled by the shrillness I was hearing from the KEFs and the Dynaudios. These are obviously high-quality speakers that many people really love. The Dynaudios do have a small hump in the treble (6-10kHz in Fig 3). But the KEFs measure very neutral. The NHTs also measure very neutral, except for that hump at 100 Hz, but I didn't hear any harshness from them.

So what gives? I'm a physicist, so it really bugs me not to be able to find something in the data that would explain what I was hearing.
I'm a bit confused myself Dr. Bob. I didn't want to get into a pissing match with you over it but that was the deciding factor, for me, to purchase the LS50's vs. Studio 20's. I felt the 20's were a bit more colored in the midrange/treble area in "direct mode" and the Dynaudio X12's were too laid back and lacked detail in the upper end. The only thing that could have emphasized the treble might have been the amplification source or they changed the tone controls to try to impress you with their clarity. I run my solid state 140W Yamaha AVR either in straight or direct mode, mostly the later to utilize my subwoofer, and I've never, ever run into ear fatigue with the LS50's, even after listening 5 to 6 hours straight.

Did you ask the dealer if you could take them home for the day and hook them up to your equipment? Between room acoustics and your hardware you might have come to a different conclusion ... just sayin'.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The Paradigms are beautifully neutral according to these measurements. I'm still baffled by the shrillness I was hearing from the KEFs and the Dynaudios. These are obviously high-quality speakers that many people really love. The Dynaudios do have a small hump in the treble (6-10kHz in Fig 3). But the KEFs measure very neutral. The NHTs also measure very neutral, except for that hump at 100 Hz, but I didn't hear any harshness from them.

So what gives? I'm a physicist, so it really bugs me not to be able to find something in the data that would explain what I was hearing.
I auditioned Paradigm speakers extensively too before settling on the Focal and KEF. If you go by 3rd party measurements, they are all comparable.

http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/paradigm_signature_s2/

http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=793:nrc-measurements-kef-r500&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements

http://www.soundstage.com/measurements/speakers/paradigm_signature_s1_v2/

http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=902:nrc-measurements-focal-electra-1008-be-2-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=941:nrc-measurements-kef-ls50-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

There many things not shown in such measurements, such as the interaction with amplifiers and other components in the chain and room acoustics is a major factor. Human factor is also major, I believe not everyone prefers live like accuracy. In an extreme case, "accurate" to one may well feel like what you describe as "shrillness" but of course I am stretching, in trying to make a point.

Case in point, I almost bought the LS50, and I did not find it "shrill" at all when compared with a pair of Revel that costs 4X as much but then that was just my own subjective impression. I guess that's why there are so many different speakers out there, enough to please everyone.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The Paradigms are beautifully neutral according to these measurements. I'm still baffled by the shrillness I was hearing from the KEFs and the Dynaudios. These are obviously high-quality speakers that many people really love. The Dynaudios do have a small hump in the treble (6-10kHz in Fig 3). But the KEFs measure very neutral. The NHTs also measure very neutral, except for that hump at 100 Hz, but I didn't hear any harshness from them.

So what gives? I'm a physicist, so it really bugs me not to be able to find something in the data that would explain what I was hearing.
As Peng already said, there's more acoustic behavior of speakers that doesn't appear in these measurements. For example, does the crossover, in a 2-way design, adequately suppress the high frequency breakup noise of the mid woofer? I doubt if that's a problem in the S1, but there are other well known speakers where that is an audible problem. Such noise won't appear in a frequency response curve, unless it is a large prominent peak. Similarly, does the crossover suppress a tweeter's low frequency distortion?

After looking at the SoundStage graphs of the Paradigm S1, I'm very curious to hear them. Those frequency response curves are among the best looking that I've seen. They're smooth and neutral, THD is very low, and the impedance curves look very smooth, with no bumps or disjointedness which can be signs of unwanted resonances in the cabinet or woofer frame structures.

One thing you mentioned in an earlier post, where you compared the off-axis sound of the NHT vs the S1, can be seen in the frequency response curves.

"With the S1s, the sweet spot is much smaller (than the NHT). If I move off to the side, the imaging seems to go haywire."

The NHT is a 3-way and the S1 is a 2-way. Compare figure 2 (showing FR curves measured at 45°, 60°, and 75° off-axis) for both speakers in the 1 to 2 kHz range.

Paradigm S1 (figure 2)

NHT Classic 3 (figure 2)
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The Paradigms are beautifully neutral according to these measurements. I'm still baffled by the shrillness I was hearing from the KEFs and the Dynaudios. These are obviously high-quality speakers that many people really love. The Dynaudios do have a small hump in the treble (6-10kHz in Fig 3). But the KEFs measure very neutral. The NHTs also measure very neutral, except for that hump at 100 Hz, but I didn't hear any harshness from them.

So what gives? I'm a physicist, so it really bugs me not to be able to find something in the data that would explain what I was hearing.
Have you auditioned any RBH? I like them a lot. So does Gene. :D

I would put RBH up against any speaker.

Bust as we all know, it does come down to personal preference.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
While I disagree with your choice … I chose the LS50’s over the Paradigm Studio 10 & 20’s (v5) after I listened to all 3, side by side … I completely respect it. Enjoy.

He chose Paradigm's top-of-the-line Signature S-1 over the LS50's. He never listened to the Studio Series!
 
D

Dr. Bob

Junior Audioholic
Thanks for posting the Soundstage graphs, Peng. On their account there seems to be slight hump from 2k-5kHz in the Kef's response, that wasn't apparent in the Stereophile graph. Maybe this is what I was hearing? But the Dynaudio graph doesn't have anything similar - in fact, it's a bit depressed in that region.

Anyway, as you said, it's a very personal choice, which is what makes it interesting and fun. Thanks for all the speaker suggestions, folks. I'll keep them in mind when I'm shopping for my next pair ... in 2035...
;)
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top