Need Guidance buying 5.1 HT Spkrs & Receiver

[Clay Bertrand]

Hey Happy New Year Aholics!!

I'm quite uninformed and an audio neophyte so I apologize in advance. I just got a new 75 inch Samsung LED and I have a 20'(feet) x 25'(feet) room that is pre-wired for a 5.1 HT. I have a budget of $1500.00 (USD) and I want to be able to get the best: A.) Speakers B.) Sub and C.) Receiver. I understand from reading many of the comments in these forums that Speaker quality and getting the right Sub should be the priority over receiver (at least when budgeting where the money gets spent). I have also learned that BOSE are completely overrated and overpriced and that many better quality makers with less famous names are a much smarter choice.

I mostly watch sports, HDTV and sometimes movies and the system will not be used for gaming.

Can anybody share their knowledge and opinion and tell me how YOU, AN AUDIOAHOLIC, would spend my $1500 to get the best full 5.1 set up??? I am looking to get all components at one time with my budget.

Cheers and thanks. Any information would be valued and appreciated!!!

 

[Ty Wayne]

Hi Clay. Im a newbie myself. I don't have any advice for you. Im only commenting to tell you that you've come to the right place. Forum members have went above and beyond in helping me get a new system. Welcome. You'll love it!

 

[KEW]

Will you use for music or HT only?

 

[zieglj01]

HTD Level Three bookshelf
http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers/Level-THREE-Bookshelf-Speakers

HTD center channel
http://www.htd.com/Products/level-three-speakers/Level-THREE-Center-Channel-Speaker

Level Two for surrounds
http://www.htd.com/Products/level-two-speakers/Level-TWO-Bookshelf-Speakers

HSU VTF-2 subwoofer
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html

Denon E400 receiver
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavre400/denon-avr-e400-7.1-4k-3d-networking-receiver-airplay/1.html

HTD is about to have a 10% off sale - if you call them, they have
been known to give you the code early - for new buyers

Check them out if interested - they make nice stuff.

 

[Clay Bertrand]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the welcomes and the info so far.

A little more info on my use: I will be using the system predominantly for TV. Any music streaming would just be strictly secondary and basically a fancy alternative to the BlueTooth speaker I have. I recently picked up a pair of very gently used Cerwin Vega D-9s that I'm refreshing to set up in the AUDIO ONLY room. (I'll have to consult the NINJAs and CHIEFs down the line on that mini project).

ALSO, in part response to zieglj01, can the speaker options you suggested be mounted on the walls?? It seems they can with the right bracket but I'm not sure. My speaker wiring is already punched thru at about 7ft height in each corner of the room so towers or any non wall hung option won't work with my prewire. Also, are there no concerns you would have going with a refurbed Receiver? Is that a good way to shift the budget to the speakers??

Again, all responses very appreciated.

P.S. BTW, I'm in Southern California.....if that affects anything......Do you guys recommend purchasing thru Amazon where available?? I try to avoid CALI sales taxes when purchasing if possible.... [if you are an IRS or CA Franchise Tax Board employee, that last sentence was made strictly in jest for humorous purposes ONLY. I pay all my taxes. No....REALLY : ) ]

 

[zieglj01]

ALSO, in part response to zieglj01, can the speaker options you suggested be mounted on the walls?? It seems they can with the right bracket but I'm not sure. My speaker wiring is already punched thru at about 7ft height in each corner of the room so towers or any non wall hung option won't work with my prewire. Also, are there no concerns you would have going with a refurbed Receiver? Is that a good way to shift the budget to the speakers??

Again, all responses very appreciated.

P.S. BTW, I'm in Southern California.....if that affects anything......Do you guys recommend purchasing thru Amazon where available?? I try to avoid CALI sales taxes when purchasing if possible.... [if you are an IRS or CA Franchise Tax Board employee, that last sentence was made strictly in jest for humorous purposes ONLY. I pay all my taxes. No....REALLY : ) ]

Yes the HTD can be wall-mounted

I have bought refurbish receivers twice from AC4L with good results - and
many have done so. You can also look at used receivers on Amazon. Or,
stretch the budget a little for a new one
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00B7X2OV2/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1420941766&sr=8-1&keywords=denon e300 receiver&condition=used

There is not much on Amazon that I would purchase as far as speakers based on
your budget - my recommendation on Amazon would be above your budget.

As far as speakers in California - Ascend makes nice stuff
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170.html

And, many like HSU
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html

 

[KEW]

Zieglj put together the same package I was thinking of.

Here is your answer:
http://www.htd.com/Products/Wall-Mount-Speaker-Brackets

I have bought 15 refurb components starting at 4 years ago from Accessories4less they come with a one year manufacturers warranty (but it is a pain if you have to use it). I haven't had any issues yet.

Edit: Zieglj posted as I was typing.

 

[KEW]

The E300 Zieglj linked above is probably the best receiver to get from a value standpoint. As an amplifier it has 5 channels with decent power.
Audyssey MultEQ is good to help integrate your sub into your system (and what you would give up at a lower price).
The E300 is $169 from Accessories4less. Only you can really decide what it is worth to buy used (or new) instead.

 

[Clay Bertrand]

Thanks guys for all the info!! I have seen HSU before and always been really good things as far as reviews. The sub you guys recommended looks like really good quality and a value for the price. The speaker company looks to be really quality as well. Although I didn't find much in terms of information on them or reviews on the web anywhere. I did read good things about their customer service. Is this a small independent type of speaker building company? I apologize for my ignorance as to speakers.....But as an ASIDE.....

It seems to me that more so than any other audio equipment, speakers have higher end or "boutique builders" for lack of a better term. I mean to say that small independent very high quality speaker builders (like Philharmonic??) that are not known to the average consumer seem to produce much better products that are more respected by true audiophiles than the brand names living off their reputations. Is this interpretation correct?? Are speakers something that the best/premium ones that are a cut above are from the small indy speaker builders and not the Bose, JBL, Polk name brands?? Not the crap from BestBuy???? Please clarify....

Also, and perhaps as part of the last question, is there any particular reasons that each of you guys would recommend HTD?

My last question is regarding the Receiver. My research on the Denon showed that it does have some streaming apps but no Bluetooth or wifi. As was suggested by you guys, I WOULD consider a different model or going a little over budget to get a receiver that has Bluetooth and Wifi (or at least Bluetooth). I don't want to have the after market Bluetooth receiver cluttering things if I can avoid it. So, can you guys recommend another receiver that you would go with??? Is the Sony receiver at Costco decent as a NEW option here in your opinions at all?? Its a Sony STR-DN840 7.2 4k Receiver w Bluetooth and WiFi..... I can't post the link as a newbie......

Thanks for the Wise Knowledge.....

 

[KEW]

I looked it over and it doesn't appear to have any feature to EQ for your room (equivalent to the Audyssey MultEQ I mentioned above).
You are leaving it to chance that your room and sub to main integration will work out. I really like to see auto EQ capability.

This would be my recommendation:
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-S700W-7-2-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B00JRTMOGS/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1420947028&sr=1-1&keywords=avr-s700w

 

[Clay Bertrand]

Thanks for the link. I like that model better for the same price point as that Sony. I get what you are saying about the sub. I have an odd room as it is and I'd rather have the machines do the thinking and keep themselves where they have to be as much as possible.

This is another stupid question but these receivers are video upscalers too?? I've been concentrating on the AUDIO.....havent thought about the video part of the receiver....

On the topic of the Speakers, I just saw that Ascend is a half hour up the road from my house. I like the idea of being so close to the producer. I saw that Zieglj is from Texas so its similar perhaps with HTD being in Plano. KEW is out there in the GA... anyway Since you mentioned them, what do you guys think about Ascend AS COMPARED TO the HTDs in terms of quality and what you guys would prefer to purchase is you were me???

Also, do you guys know if these companies do package deals if everything is bought all at once?? (except the Sub which I would have to buy from HSU?)

Sorry to pepper the questions KEW!! Thanks again.

 

[KEW]

I will let Zieglj answer your question about speakers. He has more experience listening to many value oriented speakers than anyone I know of on the forums (not just this one)!

I just wanted to thank you for doing a little homework first. It is frustrating when someone asks for advice then goes off and buys what some salesman at Best Buy suggests. That is part of human nature and we deal with it; but it is nice to see you comment that you have an odd room indicating that you have read about room issues and bass and thought on it a bit!

Unfortunately, I don't have that receiver and am an audio guy (not so much video). My TV looks fine, so I don't ask any questions! If you missed the link below, it is a pretty good video preview (no lab measurements) of features and may answer your question. Alternately, go to the bottom of the page and click on the "read the complete thread" link and ask your question on that thread.
http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-s700w-a-v-receiver

 

[zieglj01]

On the topic of the Speakers, I just saw that Ascend is a half hour up the road from my house. I like the idea of being so close to the producer. I saw that Zieglj is from Texas so its similar perhaps with HTD being in Plano. KEW is out there in the GA... anyway Since you mentioned them, what do you guys think about Ascend AS COMPARED TO the HTDs in terms of quality and what you guys would prefer to purchase is you were me???

Also, do you guys know if these companies do package deals if everything is bought all at once?? (except the Sub which I would have to buy from HSU?)

HTD is still 5 hrs from me - so they are not close enough.

As far as Ascend and HTD - no one can guarantee anything for your ears.
Since you are 30 minutes away, go and listen to the Ascend.

HTD has been making speakers for a long time, so they have been around
for a while. They just do not put a lot of money in marketing - they like to
go by word of mouth. No matter what you buy from HTD, they are offering
a 10% off sale, for their 16th anniversary on the 24th - however, if you are
interested in their speakers, then call them and they might give you that
sales code early - they tend to do that with first time buyers.

Except for towers, HTD tends to pay return shipping for first time buyers.

If you are game - you can buy a pair of Ascend and HTD, and test them
in your home - send the loser back and then complete your set-up.

A lot of people like HSU - so keep them on a short list.

Your call

 

[psbfan9]

Hi Clay,

you have had some very good suggestions so far, but I'm going to go in a little bit of a different direction. Small, wall mountable, and very good build quality. NHT is in California. Not sure if they allow visits or not, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

NHT complete 5.1 system on sale now;

http://www.nhthifi.com/bookshelf-speakers-subwoofer-Super-Surround-5-1?sc=12&category=3830

Paired with this receiver;

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx2000/denon-avr-x2000-7.1-ch-4k-ultra-hd-networking-receiver-airplay/1.html

Another option for a complete speaker package. EMPtek

http://emptek.com/compacthts.php

If you need any cables, (HDMI, Speaker wire, etc,...) Look at Blue Jeans or Monoprice

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/

http://www.monoprice.com/

 

[Clay Bertrand]

DAMN!! You guys are great!!!

Sorry to have gone "Off the Grid" but I didn't want to post again until I had ample time to digest and further educate myself as to all of the suggestions and info I have been given by everyone here. Like falling down a rabbit hole--the world of Audio/Video is a world unto itself!!! I think it's killer that you guys share your knowledge!! After studying reviews from this site and others as well as educated product owners, I feel like I'm understanding what you guys are telling me. You guys are really right on with your guidance. I really appreciate all the suggestions....I can't thank you guys enough!!!

Please forgive my rambling update. For as a young grasshopper, I am very jumpy!!


What I have learned from my research and the ESPECIALLY the expert guidance here is, for an odd sized/open floorplan type of room, and in order to get the most out of the performance of the speakers ***PARTICULARLY THE SUBWOOFER***, it is highly advisable to have a receiver running the most advanced Audyessy "flavor" within my budget. I know that all the Audyessy systems can calibrate the room (to varying degrees depending on the "flavor"). However, I'm not clear on if ALL the "flavors" will properly EQ the SUB or only the newest ones??

Is it only the higher end, Audyessy MultEq XT and Audyessy MultEqXT32 that would properly integrate and eq the sub?? Or do the other lower "flavors" also have that ability??

On that topic, because of the importance of the SubEQ and integration, I have tried to research as much as I can about the various companies and their room correction technology. From what I gather, the Audyessy MultEQ technology seems to be the best among the various technologies out there )with the exception of the Anthem products perhaps). I saw that the others (YPAO etc.) do not appear to have the SubEQ abilities that the Audyessy technology has. I see that Onkyo no longer utilizes Audyessy (altho that could&should change in the future) and it appears that mostly higher end Receivers use the higher Audyessy technology. Denons all use some form as does Marantz apparently (no surprise there)

MY TENTATIVELY NEW APPROACH: So based on everything you guys have suggested, I am looking to tweak my priorities, but HERE IS THE RUB: I still want to put the bulk of my money into the speakers and sub BUT what good are quality speakers if the Receiver can't integrate and EQ the speakers SUB????

THAT SAID, my thinking is to narrow my Receiver brand choice to Denon (SHOCKER--ALL YOU GUYS HAVE RECOMMENDED DENON!!) and particularly, to try to get the highest Audyessy Flavored Denon Receiver with WiFi and Bluetooth for the best price. (Secondarily I would like to also have multi Zone options---SO MANY WISHES, so little DIMES!!) As of this morning, I had been mulling a new Denon AVR X1100. Obviously, if bought new this is a bit of a drain on my speaker budget (or I tweak the budget painfully upward a little....getting tight....).

Psbfan9 recommended the Denon X2000 from Accessories4Less (along with a couple speaker set up packages---THANKS for the suggestions!!).

I know I mentioned this before, and I'm sorry for sounding like a moronic tech-snob (yeah right a snob with MY LIMITED BUDGET!!!! lol) but I still am having reservations about purchasing a refurbed Receiver especially the more money I am spending for it. I read these nightmare reviews about problems with returns and return shipping etc.... I know that the whiners really can taint the review pool and skew things unfairly a lot of the time. It can be tough to gleen the smart legit complaints from the idiotic bitchers!! Its just hard to wrap my head around the AV Receiver, the brains of the whole op being a refurb when everything else from the TV to the speakers is brand new. I'm on that LEDGE!!! Talk me down boys!!!!!!!!!!

Because I ramble, here is my Summary of Questions:

I'm not clear on if ALL the Audyessy "flavors" will properly EQ the SUB or only the newest ones meaning: Is it only the higher end, Audyessy MultEq XT and Audyessy MultEqXT32 that would properly integrate and eq the sub?? Or do the other lower "flavors" (MultEQ and 2EQ) also have that ability??

Because the Audyessy MultEQ seems to be important would you guys see any value in getting a NEW x1100 and taking away a little from the speaker/sub budget with the Total budget still being around $1500.00? If so, what speaker/sub combo recommendations would you have ??

Has anyone had any bad experiences using the Bluetooth and or WiFi on a Denon receiver??? (I've read of some issues....)

KEW and Zieglj01, what are your opinions of the small speaker packages recommended by Psbfan9 above??

Is the following set up (links below) a good combo in your opinions or would you guys recommend always trying to have bigger sound coming from the front and hence bigger fronts than rears in a 5.1 set up?? Are bigger fronts always the way to go in your opinions/experience??
DAMN!!! Forgot I can't post links yet
I was proposing some ascend products......

Wondering if you would recommend the same cbm170 bookshelfs for the four corner speakers of the 5.1 or if its more advisable to get bigger fronts since that's where more of the sounds come from in movie set ups??

BTW, I really like what I'm reading about the HSU subs. Im kinda leanin that way at least right now.......


Man, I feel like I'm back in school learning a new language!!!! Very interesting stuff and you guys are great for helping, teaching, guiding, and advising the Audio Jedis in training!!! Can't wait to use my light saber errrr I mean...Can't wait to post links and pics!!

Thanks a TON y'all!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Really appreciate the responses..... sorry to keep sayin...

 

[zieglj01]

KEW and Zieglj01, what are your opinions of the small speaker packages recommended by Psbfan9 above??

They are nice - however for me, I would prefer bigger speakers.

Like, here are the Definitive SM450 for $250 a pair - they are nice
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882325060

Your call

 

[KEW]

First, let's talk about SubEQ because it is often the source of confusion.
It is designed (and only useful) for systems with dual subs and is only available with MultEQ XT 32. It performs the following functions:
1) Level Matches the two subs.
2) Adjusts the phase/time delay for the two subs so they both arrive at the listening position at the exact same time.
After Sub EQ completes these two tasks, MultEQ XT 32 treats the two subs as one sub (just as MultEQ and MultEQ XT would)

All versions of MultEQ will match level and time delay between the sub and speakers.
Arguably you don't need it for two subs if you place them the same distance from the listening position (you can level match by ear close enough).


Here is link to chart of the Flavors of Audyssey MultEQ.
http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/flavors

I would recommend plain MultEQ as the most cost effective for the following reasons.
vs 2EQ
1) 2EQ does not EQ sub. Enough said!
vs MultEQ XT
1) XT adds nothing to EQ of Mains and sub except the benefit of measuring at 8 positions instead of 6. I have never read anything strongly positive or negative about the benefit of adding 2 positions. Seems like 6 is adequate (but I have no experience comparing the two).
2) XT adds higher EQ resolution to the satellites. While there are some movies and concert videos that use the satellites for strong content. In my experience the satellites are used to add stuff like shattered glass being thrown behind you. IOW, largely special effects. I have yet to hear dialogue or music coming from the surrounds (though there often is music if I walk close by the satellite). We all are familiar with the sound of voices and most of us with the sound of instruments. Overemphasizing or underemphasizing the harmonics messes with the harmonic balance that defines one sound/instrument from another at the same frequency. IOW, it can sound artificial. However, given the content of the surrounds and that you are not starting with crappy speakers,this is not that significant. As far as special effets go, we are not going to know if the zing of a bullet whizzing by sounds like a .22 instead of the 9mm that was fired or if the glass being shattered sound like 1/2" thick plate glass instead of 3/8"! So my attitude is the surround speakers are nice to have, and I want Audyssey to set the time and match the level, but it is a waste to spend much money refining the sound from them. You also can see this reflected in Zieglj's recommendations for the HTD system. Surround speakers are downgraded as a sacrifice to afford better Mains.
That said, the added cost for XT is not great. If you find the right deal on an XT unit, it can be free or very inexpensive and it will not hurt!
vs MultEQ XT 32
1) MultEQ roughly doubles the cost of the AVR. It is the newest technology and has not yet trickled down into the budget range. The cost of XT 32 dropped significantly with the introduction of the Denon AVR-X4000, but it is pricey technology for a $1500 system. Putting your money their instead of your speakers would be a mistake.
2) It does offer higher (512X) resolution for the sub, but I can tell you that 128X does a fine job of EQ'ing and integrating the sub. I have XT 32 because I have two subs. I really feel dual subs is the only reason to get XT 32 at present.

Underlying all of this is the realization that you will probably have the same speakers 25 years from now, but likely will have swapped AVR's one to five times (depending on how important it is to you to keep up to date). Generally a 10-15 year old receiver is really starting to become obsolete (I would guess HDMI was not common 15 years ago).

 

[psbfan9]

They are nice - however for me, I would prefer bigger speakers.

Like, here are the Definitive SM450 for $250 a pair - they are nice
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882325060

Your call

I own the DefTech SM450's and they are great speakers. They are big, heavy speakers though. I made the suggestions based on budget and wanting to wall mount. The SM450's are wall mountable, but again they're big heavy speakers.

I will say get the best speakers you can afford, then worry about power. I think you're on track with Hsu subs. Ascend makes great speakers. If you can stretch the budget, go for the Sierra 1. You can build the system a little at a time. Get L/R, then as budget allows get the center, then surrounds
A few people here have used AC4less and had excellent experiences. They're a reputable company. The X2000 is $484.00 on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X2000-Integrated-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00CALM2KS

 

[zieglj01]

I own the DefTech SM450's and they are great speakers. They are big, heavy speakers though. I made the suggestions based on budget and wanting to wall mount. The SM450's are wall mountable, but again they're big heavy speakers.

These are lighter and can work - and they are also nice for the current price.
Definitive SM350
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882325059

 

[KEW]

On smaller and bigger speakers:

The compact speakers Psbfan9 recommends are nice and offer high fidelity. However, IMHO, they are too small.

I would not seriously consider the EMP. A 3" woofer is going to work much harder producing low frequencies at high volume (even with the sub). They would be nice in a home office, but your 20' by 25' room at volume would work them to death (and prove me wrong about your speakers lasting 25 years)! Also, the sensitivity is rather low at 83dB which is another mark against them.

At 4.5" I would consider the NHT's minimally viable. The same comments above apply, just not near so strongly and sensitivity is pretty normal (for a bookshelf) at 87dB. That said, if you have any WAF concerns and really want to squeeze your speaker budget a bit, surrounds is the place to do it - I could see buying a pair of these for surround duty. They will look sleek and NHT sells mounts at reasonable cost.

Around 6" is a good size woofer for a bookshelf to be used as a main. If it gets much larger (assuming a 2-way speaker), the ability to play high frequencies up to the crossover point is compromised, or the tweeter is asked to play lower than is feasible. This is a generality, there are some special designs that make a liar out of me, but it is a safe statement for normal speakers.
6" moves enough air to get loud in your room.

For your surrounds, I would look for a speaker which had mounts designed for it. All 3 discussed above do. The NHT's or HTD 2's would be my preference.

I think I have answered your question about better speakers up front. Also know there is absolutely no reason (unless you want the look) to use the same company for the rears. Ascend are very good speakers and if you decide to go with them for the front speakers, you may want to look elsewhere to save money on the rears. their least expensive option is $300 for the CMB 170's, but then another $80 for the wall mounts or $380. NHT or HTD will save about $100 which can go to getting a new receiver.

And that brings me to my last comment. I am not about to talk you into a refurb. You have been consistent in your concern and hesitation over buying refurb. Respect that. If you did have problems, you would be so aggravated (with me and, more, yourself, because you "knew better") that it is not worth the risk. Many others here feel as you do and will never buy a refurb.

I see the receiver I linked went up $50. I hate Amazon's schizophrenic prices.

Question - Were you wanting to wall mount the fronts or just the satellites? I was assuming only the satellites.