Stuck in the Middle!

Z

zigzag03

Audioholic Intern
My home theater system consists of an Onkyo TX-SR705, a Dish Network PVR-612 sat receiver, a Sony BR player, and a Mitsi rear projection monitor, all connected by HDMI. All have been working fine, but I decided to upgrade the amp to get some network and bluetooth functionality. So I purchased a reman Denon AVR-X2100W from the folks at Accesories4Less. I swapped it in and ran immediately into a problem which i can not seem to get around.
On the Cable/Sat input to the amp, from the PVR, I can get video but not sound. If I switch the digital audio input for C/S to optical and hook up the appropriate cable, I can get audio, but only for a period of time which varies from and hour to about 3 mins, then it drops, with or perhaps without some static popping. If I change channels up/dn and back on the pvr, I can get the audio back, again for varying lengths of time. Another way to get it back is to switch the amp from C/S to any other input and then back again; again it will work for a while. The third way to do it is to unplug the hdmi cable from the amp. This will turn the audio on rock steady and it will work indefinitely. So now, to work around it, I plug the pvr into the monitor directly and all is well, except of course the point of having an av amp has been lost. I can turn on the monitor speakers and the pvr is pumping sound over hdmi just fine. Additionally, the blue ray player works fine. It sends its sound and video over hdmi to the BR input just like it should.
Here is what I've tried by way of diagnostics. I have switched the BR and C/S inputs and the problem swaps as well; that is, the BR works fine in the C/S input and the pvr behaves just the same, no sound, in the BR input. I have swapped one of my other PVR612s into the system, no change. I have replaced with new the hdmi cables from pvr to amp and amp to monitor not once, but twice, with brand new Monster brand cables of different skus and cable sizes; no change. Both pvrs work fine over hdmi direct to the monitor and to the other tv they have been connected to.
So the conclusion I have to come to is that my Dish pvr and my Denon avr hate each other! But you won't be suprised to hear that A4L says the amp must be fine because the BR works in either input, and Dish says the pvr must be ok if it works everywhere except with the Denon amp. A4L says they ran my issue past the people at Denon and they come to the same conclusion. Let me also say the A4L was very patient with all this and spent a great deal of time trying to help me work thru it but with no joy.
So here am I, stuck in the middle. I have invested hours and over $100 in hdmi cables and torn apart two installaions. I can return the amp, and they might be nice about it and not whack me the 15% restock charge (not to mention they've lowered the price another $10 since I bought it 3 weeks ago!), and then what. I like this unit. For the price, it gives me all the functionality I could hope for. So I could ask them to send me another, and that will be quite a crap-shoot I think. Or I could pick a different brand, but it will cost me more to get what I wanted, and who knows will it work? Or I could just stick my old Onk back in and forget the whole thing!
Does anyone who has been patient enough to read thru all this have any thoughts on the problem?
Thanks in advance, ZZ03
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I can't read none of it. Sorry I wish I could help but I don't read blobs. No idea what is you are asking.
 
Z

zigzag03

Audioholic Intern
not sure i can state it any plainer... but thanks anyway
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Hi. Have you tried turning the "HDMI Control" either on or off to see if it affects this?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Try what Adam said, and if no change, try a processor reset also. If nothing work then probably you are stuck with a compatibility issue, i.e. as you said they hate each other. If you like everything else of the unit and that it works with everything else except the C/S, then you can get around the sound issue by hooking your TV's digital out back into the Denon's digital in to get sound.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Wow, 3db sure doesn't like my suggestion. I wonder if he has a better one.
 
Z

zigzag03

Audioholic Intern
i have reset the reciever, it's power button plus scan up scan down i think, and that doesn't get me there. i will investigate the hdmi control thing i think i've seen something about it. and i think that's a good suggestion about looping the audio back to the receiver i hadn't thought of going at it from the "back door" so to speak. I guess what bothers me the most is that the unit is a reman, as i'm sure you all know about A4L that's all they sell, and i guess i feel like maybe a bad one could have snuck through. Do you all concur with the denon side that its probably not a defective amp and if i get another i'll have the same issue?
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
not sure i can state it any plainer... but thanks anyway
I meant not your phrasing, but a HUGE Blob of text.

If you had separate thoughts in a separate paragraphs it would be much easier to read.

Please format the text. I'm not a C compiler.

p.s:
Check for spelling too.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
It is easy to hit the wrong button you know..
Yeah, I know. I just thought you Canadians were perfect. :D Oh, how my illusions are fading. I still like your beer, though. :)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Do you all concur with the denon side that its probably not a defective amp and if i get another i'll have the same issue?
Their troubleshooting process is reasonable. The receiver works with alternate sources plugged into the same inputs.
There has to be something about the PVR's output that is causing the receiver to drop the signal.
The big question is whether the PVR's output is within spec or not, because the Denon could feasibly be rejecting a signal that it shouldn't.
Do you own the PVR? How old is it? Have you checked with DirectTV to see if they would replace it if you tell them it is not working consistently?

Try Adam's "backdoor" plan. If the signal from the TV works, but not passing the AVR to the receiver, that would make for a interesting twist. I'm not sure what it means, but Adam has deep experience regarding twister in the context of backdoor operations
 
Z

zigzag03

Audioholic Intern
I can't fault the troubleshooting either, that's probably my biggest problem. I'm a marine mechanic, amongst other things, and troublshooting is where i've made my dough for more than 30 years. Believe me I get their point. And turn it around to Dish; their equipment works fine everywhere except with my new Denon. It even works fine with the old Onk. And remember, i have already swapped in a second pvr that works equally well everywhere else.
Fiddled and diddled hdmi control every way I can see and no progress at all. I'll need to get a long enough optical cable to try out the backdoor approach. I'm grateful for all input, er, suggestions, regardless of door... And will work on paragraph structure and spelling, always room to improve, don't want to let down the high standards of this fine board.
 
Z

zigzag03

Audioholic Intern
quick update:

no optical out on the Mitsi but coaxial so i looped that back and no sound still. It was a long shot since no tv speaker audio over hdmi thru amp, only when pvr connected direct to tv. Again, thanks to all and happy holidays
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
quick update:

no optical out on the Mitsi but coaxial so i looped that back and no sound still. It was a long shot since no tv speaker audio over hdmi thru amp, only when pvr connected direct to tv. Again, thanks to all and happy holidays
If you connect your TV's digital coax out to the coax in of the Denon it should work. It is better to read the manual of your TV and Denon AVR, but you basically have to do the following.

1) Connect HDMI out from PVR box to HDMI in of TV.
2) Check that you are getting sound from the TV speakers.
3) Connect dig coax output of TV to Denon coax input.
4) Go into Dennon setting to select the digital coax input when TV is selected.

If you don't change the input setting in the Denon it will still think the sound is coming from HDMI.
 
Z

zigzag03

Audioholic Intern
Yes I can do that but I see no point. i can already put the optical out from the sat box to the amp and get sound, as long as the hdmi from sat box goes direct to tv. I can't however get reliable sound via optical running hdmi thru the amp. It will drop out periodically, but go rock solid if I unplug the hdmi and go direct to tv. See paragraph 2 above. If that sound was reliable I would probably just move on and not worry about it, but it's not. So I can get sound, but what's the point in an av amp that can't switch inputs without switching cables around. I guess i could add a second cable from the amp out to the tv but then i'd have to switch tv inputs to watch the br. And yes i do get sound from the tv when the sat box is hooked direct. That just tells me that the sat box is capable of putting out sound over hdmi that the amp is not capable of processing via hdmi. I don't want to spend $400 on an amp that is not fully functional in my system.

Let me thank you all for your efforts. This is going back. I think I'll ask them to send another and let me see if the issue is not with this amp. Isn't that the definition of crazy?? Thanks everyone.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes I can do that but I see no point. i can already put the optical out from the sat box to the amp and get sound,


In that case, you are correct. Now if you still prefer to run HDMI from the sat box to the receiver and if the video signal is solid then you can still run the digital cooax or optical out from the sat box to the TV digital input (optical/coax) and then loop the output back to the receiver's digital in as previously described. It sounds like there is some hand shaking issue between the Denon and the Sat box(es) you have. I have one setup that has similar issue but by turning power of the TV off/off or by switching between the HDMI outputs a few times will fix it. Once sound is establish it does not drop again but yours seem to be more stubborn.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I have come to this late. This is clearly a repeater handshake issue. I suspect the Denon has updated HDCP codes, and your Dish PVR is out of date.

Dish should have a firmware update to put in the current HDCP codes. If not they should provide you with a new PVR that is certifies according to current codes.

At least one unit is either out of date, non certified, or both. I'm betting it is the PVR, as satellite and cable units are notorious for these issues.

A TV is an end device, and does not require repeater handshakes, so issue seldom arise connecting a device directly to a TV.

If your TV has an HDMI audio return channel, that might be a solution for you.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Wow, 3db sure doesn't like my suggestion. I wonder if he has a better one.
My bad Adam. I apologize for that. Fixed.. Definately a spaz selection.. I need more Canadian beer to ermmm take the edge of my coffee consumption. :)
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
My bad Adam. I apologize for that. Fixed.. Definately a spaz selection.. I need more Canadian beer to ermmm take the edge of my coffee consumption. :)
Thanks - and you never need to apologize to me! Well, maybe if you cheat at Twister. :D
 
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