Frequency response graphs

[crossedover]

I just want my system to faithfully reproduce music. Sounding good and the accurate reproduction are 2 different things. I've spent thousands on microphones to get live recordings "correct", these microphones measure absolutely flat. If the venue is lively, the mics reveal it, I just expect my system to reproduce it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You telling me Dennis Murphy or Linkwitz never did DIY? Seriously man you are just being silly.

I meant to say they no longer DIY.

I think at one point all speaker designers and builders DIY.

But when they build speakers and design speakers for business, they are usually no longer DIY.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm failing to see the logic of your argument, or your seemingly vituperative tone, but you've worn me out. This thread is all yours.

Definitely not worth my time.

 

[lsiberian]

What context are you referring?

Where in the post did I say none of them have ever DIY?

I think at one point all speaker designers and builders DIY and many of them started out in their garages.

But when they build speakers and design speakers for business, they are usually no longer DIY.

Some of your posts read as insulting to the DIY speaker builders. I'm sure that wasn't your intent. I understand your point was that commercial speakers don't suck especially the really good ones.

I've never heard a better system for classical music than the one TLS has. Of course Van Zyl's home speakers are amazing too.

I'm sure Dennis still does DIY

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Some of your posts read as insulting to the DIY speaker builders. I'm sure that wasn't your intent. I understand your point was that commercial speakers don't suck especially the really good ones.

I've never heard a better system for classical music than the one TLS has. Of course Van Zyl's home speakers are amazing too.

I'm sure Dennis still does DIY

I'm definitely grey and in the middle, not extreme. I'm actually very liberal and I like most speakers.

Whether it is DIY, ID, or B&M, good speakers sound good.

I've owned mostly accurate-measuring speakers (RBH, Revel, KEF, Phil, TAD). But I've also owned speakers that are not considered the most accurate. Yet, they also sounded very good.

Anyway, that's that. Back to my TV shows.

 

[TLS Guy]

And you think you are the ONLY one?

Other speaker designers from Linkwitz, Revel, KEF, TAD, Ascend, Salk/Philharmonic, PSB, RBH, etc., just don't know how to design the great sounding speakers with low Q and great measurement because they didn't DIY? Because they designed speakers for their companies? Because they just don't know how to?

You don't get it because you don't understand the physics and the engineering.

If you damp a pipe until you get this impedance curve.

Then this follows.

You can see the impulse is 0.5 msec long, not longer.

This can be deduced from the physics of it without actually measuring it. But here you can see the science of the design works.

Is low Q important to reproducing the accurate sound, especially the bass decay? You bet! If the speaker rings longer it has to be colored to a degree. The design of the speakers we are talking bout, Helmholz resonators basically can not achieve that, no matter how much you protest.

Now you may like the sound of it, but that is irrelevant as far as the science and engineering is concerned. Yes, it is important that the sound from a speakers starts and stops when it should. The fact you like a speaker that rings longer is neither here nor there.

This was a discussion about Q between me and Swerd. The point at issue, is which speakers among the four mentioned are low Q? Scientific observation from the graphs presented shows that only my design is. That is the point at issue, not in the totality of whether it is otherwise a good speaker, although I and others have every reason to believe it is.

As I have tried to explain to you many times, I have the luxury of impractical commercial designs and this I believe is one of them. Commercial designers do not have this option and have to make compromises I don't.

The only point you make and it is an observation that can not be denied, is that a lot of people are happy with speakers compromised in various ways including high Q. You are wrong about everything else.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You don't get it because you don't understand the physics and the engineering.

I'm not an engineer or speaker designer. I was not talking about myself.

But all these big time companies do employ very experienced and intelligent TRUE ENGINEERS with actual engineering degrees from universities (not from the University of Google) with vast knowledge of engineering and physics. They have vast amount of resources, research, and money at their fingertips. They have vast options with drivers, XO, and everything else.

 

[PENG]

I have great respect for people who DIY their speakers that are accurate and I believe someone like TLS do not have to live with compromise manufacturers often do, especially cost. Not trying to defend ADTG but from what I have read so far I am sure he meant no disrespect as I have seen no sign of it. In his last post he did use some strong words but who wouldn't if felt cornered. Just remember he did own a pair of Phil 3 though he obviously did not (and correctly IMO) consider that a DIY product. OTOH I also believe there are not too many people who have the resource such as time and money, even if they have the knowledge and will there still end up making compromises, probably more. For most people who simply want to own a pair of speakers that are relatively accurate, look great to them in their room, with well reviewed measurements (including the Q's) taken by reputable reviewers/labs; and are willing to pay premium, then I would say go with manufacturers who make such product. I guess I may be stating the obvious but then someone may disagree completely.

Back to the original topic, I thought ADTG and TLS agreed on measurements such as frequency response graphs don't tell everything unless measured in the same way in the same environment. That can explain why speakers don't measure as good could perform better in one's listening environment even if this person prefer the sound of an "accurate" speaker. May be ADTG is saying this can happen more often in DIY products than big manufacturer's (such as Revel and KEF) products?

 

[Steve81]

On the topic of impulse response, from Bill Fitzmaurice:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1478581-how-important-impulse-response.html#post23464901

On the Data Bass site their measurements include a graph for "impulse response"...
I thought maybe what it's showing is how quickly the driver settles down when the signal stops.

Correct.

It seems if they are taking these measurements and posting them they must be important to sub performance.

Not terribly so. What the impulse mainly shows is how quickly inertia is overcome and the cone returns to rest after a single cycle pulse is applied. We don't listen to single cycle impulses, we listen to a continuous stream of impulses, and the inertial force is totally dwarfed by the electro-magnetic force provided by the motor. If the impulse response was really bad you'd hear it, but the frequency response would also point out the speaker deficiencies, and it would do so far more obviously. The main use of impulse response is to help identify what might be causing a really poor frequency response.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have great respect for people who DIY their speakers that are accurate and I believe someone like TLS do not have to live with compromise manufacturers often do, especially cost. Not trying to defend ADTG but from what I have read so far I am sure he meant no disrespect as I have seen no sign of it. In his last post he did use some strong words but who wouldn't if felt cornered. Just remember he did own a pair of Phil 3 though he obviously did not (and correctly IMO) consider that a DIY product. OTOH I also believe there are not too many people who have the resource such as time and money, even if they have the knowledge and will there still end up making compromises, probably more. For most people who simply want to own a pair of speakers that are relatively accurate, look great to them in their room, with well reviewed measurements (including the Q's) taken by reputable reviewers/labs; and are willing to pay premium, then I would say go with manufacturers who make such product. I guess I may be stating the obvious but then someone may disagree completely.

Back to the original topic, I thought ADTG and TLS agreed on measurements such as frequency response graphs don't tell everything unless measured in the same way in the same environment. That can explain why speakers don't measure as good could perform better in one's listening environment even if this person prefer the sound of an "accurate" speaker. May be ADTG is saying this can happen more often in DIY products than big manufacturer's (such as Revel and KEF) products?

I think there are many potential great sounding speakers available (DIY, ID, B&M). And to claim that there is only one best design is just not cool.

 

[Swerd]

I meant to say they [ie. Dennis Murphy or Saul Linkwitz] no longer DIY.

I think at one point all speaker designers and builders DIY. But when they build speakers and design speakers for business, they are usually no longer DIY.

It depends on what you mean by "DIY". The standard meaning is "Design It Yourself and Build It Yourself using tools and methods available to the public", but there is also the "Design It Yourself – Built by Someone else".

In the case of Phil 3's, they were "Designed and Assembled by Dennis Murphy in his basement using cabinets he designed but were built by Someone Else". He even does his own packing, billing, and customer service. If that isn't DIY, then I don't know what is.

It may be a business, but there is certainly no factory and warehouse with a big sign saying "MurphyBlaster Industries, Inc." I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is a Linkwitz Industries either.

As a consumer, you might be able to believe that "if the speaker sounds great, then it is great" but no speaker designer, whether a true amateur, a commercial engineer, or somewhere in between, is successful without relying on accurate and repeatable acoustic measurements.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It depends on what you mean by "DIY". The standard meaning is "Design It Yourself and Build It Yourself using tools and methods available to the public", but there is also the "Design It Yourself – Built by Someone else".

In the case of Phil 3's, they were "Designed and Assembled by Dennis Murphy in his basement using cabinets he designed but were built by Someone Else". He even does his own packing, billing, and customer service. If that isn't DIY, then I don't know what is.

It may be a business, but there is certainly no factory and warehouse with a big sign saying "MurphyBlaster Industries, Inc." I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is a Linkwitz Industries either.

As a consumer, you might be able to believe that "if the speaker sounds great, then it is great" but no speaker designer, whether a true amateur, a commercial engineer, or somewhere in between, is successful without relying on accurate and repeatable acoustic measurements.

I never said measurements are worthless.

I said measurement is always a good start. But you buy speakers based on how they measured and how they actually sound, not only by how they measured in someone's room at one point.

I am sure there are varying definitions of "DIY". To me, once you become a manufacturer of speakers (Philharmonic, Salk, etc.), you are no longer doing DIY. Instead, you are either manufacturing speakers or doing research and development for future speaker production.

I could be wrong, but I doubt if Dennis or Jim Salk refer to their speakers as DIY.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think there are many potential great sounding speakers available (DIY, ID, B&M). And to claim that there is only one best design is just not cool.

Who claimed that? Certainly not me. I have used many designs over the years.