AVR vs Stereo Reciever

[bhavin]

Hey everyone,

New to the forum, looking for some guidance, been getting mixed advice from the guys at crutchfield, my tv installer, and friends...

I am trying to utilize a single receiver to push sound to 4 Bose in-celing speakers (each pair with its own volume control) in the house as well as some type of surround sound setup from the TV. I was thinking 2 nice floorstanding speakers for the TV and surround sound experience, perhaps a sub and Center speaker.

I want to know whether an AVR receiver will do all these things or if I need to go the Stereo Receiver route? Is it true that hooking up the in ceiling speakers into an AVR receiver will impact the sound since they will plug up to front, or rear, or left/right/center inputs on the receiver?

I ordered a Harman Kardan AVR1710 (sorry cant put a link), havent received it yet, however it seemed to be a good buy and the crutchfield guy felt it would do the job. My tv installer felt otherwise, he thinks I need a Stereo receiver to

If you read this post this far.. below is my end goal.

heres what i have/plan to get
4 Bose in ceiling speakers
2 floor speakers at the TV (future)
1 center speaker at the TV (future)


1) watch movies with better sound quality than my tv speakers (using the 2 floor and center speakers)
2) when entertaining, play music thru ALL speakers from various sources (using all 7 speakers)

Thanks for any and all feedback from all you audio junkies out there!

B

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey everyone,

New to the forum, looking for some guidance, been getting mixed advice from the guys at crutchfield, my tv installer, and friends...

I am trying to utilize a single receiver to push sound to 4 Bose in-celing speakers (each pair with its own volume control) in the house as well as some type of surround sound setup from the TV. I was thinking 2 nice floorstanding speakers for the TV and surround sound experience, perhaps a sub and Center speaker.

I want to know whether an AVR receiver will do all these things or if I need to go the Stereo Receiver route? Is it true that hooking up the in ceiling speakers into an AVR receiver will impact the sound since they will plug up to front, or rear, or left/right/center inputs on the receiver?

I ordered a Harman Kardan AVR1710 (sorry cant put a link), havent received it yet, however it seemed to be a good buy and the crutchfield guy felt it would do the job. My tv installer felt otherwise, he thinks I need a Stereo receiver to

If you read this post this far.. below is my end goal.

heres what i have/plan to get
4 Bose in ceiling speakers
2 floor speakers at the TV (future)
1 center speaker at the TV (future)


1) watch movies with better sound quality than my tv speakers (using the 2 floor and center speakers)
2) when entertaining, play music thru ALL speakers from various sources (using all 7 speakers)

Thanks for any and all feedback from all you audio junkies out there!

B

Your first problem is you are tangled up with Bose. We need to know what Bose speakers you have. A lot in fact, most Bose equipment, is a nightmare because it will not work with anything but Bose.

We have had posts before about Bose in ceiling speakers, to find they can only be driven by Bose. So the first thing is we need to know the exact model number and details of those Bose speakers, and their age. I remember in one post the driving unit was non functional and no repair possible and the only thing we could do was advise removal of everything Bose from the premises.

I have a strong hunch you will need a separate system to drive the Bose speakers and your new AVR for your home theater.

There is one rule we have learned here. Anything but Bose! Frankly I personally dread it when we get posts about anything to do with Bose.

 

[bhavin]

Your first problem is you are tangled up with Bose. We need to know what Bose speakers you have. A lot in fact, most Bose equipment, is a nightmare because it will not work with anything but Bose.

We have had posts before about Bose in ceiling speakers, to find they can only be driven by Bose. So the first thing is we need to know the exact model number and details of those Bose speakers, and their age. I remember in one post the driving unit was non functional and no repair possible and the only thing we could do was advise removal of everything Bose from the premises.

I have a strong hunch you will need a separate system to drive the Bose speakers and your new AVR for your home theater.

There is one rule we have learned here. Anything but Bose! Frankly I personally dread it when we get posts about anything to do with Bose.

Thanks TLS - will pop off the covers and try to find out the model numbers. The previous owners had these installed and they seemed to function with the AVR system they had hooked up, but I didnt get to see any details of what kind of hardware they were using.

Honestly, I would just be happy to be able to have a decent AVR that can blast some music from our itunes library, pandora etc.. to whatever speakers I can use. Would be nice to utilize the Bose thats already here, but have plans to get some nice PSB floor speakers to get the surround sound aspect covered, but also used for music as well.

Assuming the Bose speakers will work, will an AVR do me right in achieving what i want or do i need to explore the Stereo Receiver route?

 

[TLS Guy]

First off, a stereo receiver will be useless to you for what you want to do. You main system will need an AVR receiver. I think the guy at Crutchfield had gear he wanted to unload, and HK receiver would not be my first choice. I would return it, and go for Yamaha, Denon or Marantz in no particular order of preference

You do need to pick a receiver that has a zone 2 out to have any chance of driving those Bose speakers. I would also recommend a receiver that outputs digital source via the zone out. A lot just output analog via zone 2. Also make sure you get a receiver with preouts, especially for zone 2. Don't stint on your receiver, go to the middle of the pack or a little above. That will be your best investment.

Now whether you can drive those speakers at all I don't know. I would not be surprised if you need a Bose distribution amp driven from the zone 2 preouts of the receiver. If you are lucky you will be able to drive them from zone 2. You might be able to use a distribution amp of another manufacturer.

Do not connect those Bose speakers to anything until we know exactly what they are. Previously we have had to have posters to actually remove a speaker to know what they have. Be prepared for bad news when we find out. If you pull a speaker and find a funny looking transformer on the side it is bad news. Bose do not conform to the universal 70 and 100 volt line standards for transformer distribution and only their gear will drive them.

By the way let me clarify the pre outs. Make sure it has at least 7.1 preouts plus zone 2 preouts. There is no advantage to 7.2 preouts, but it does not hurt either.

The reason for this, it will leave a lot of options open, and it is also an indicator that you are at a respectable quality price point.

 

[TLS Guy]

I see that HK receiver only has LFE preouts. With what you are planning to develop you need a receiver with the specs, I'm recommending.

I see that the current Bose in ceiling speakers do not have the transformer system we have encountered before. A stereo pair, which is the way they are sold, is compatible with 4 to 8 ohm compatible receivers. Now four would present too low a load. I assume those volume controls you speak of are impedance matching controls. However that need to be confirmed as well as the impedance they are set for.

I don't see that Bose now make speakers for that Bose speaker controller amp. So if it is a new system you are probably in luck.

 

[herbu]

Honestly, I would just be happy to be able to have a decent AVR that can blast some music from our itunes library, pandora etc.. to whatever speakers I can use.

First, I'll help you give TLS Guy a huge "Thank You". Like he said, Bose can be a really sticky and complicated thing, and not fun. There are not a lot of people willing to offer their time for it.

Next, your quote above is a bit of a red flag. You want a "decent" AVR, but are willing to have, "whatever speakers I can use".
That's backwards and wrong. Your current speakers and configuration may dictate certain capabilities necessary in your receiver, but even the most expensive AVR with those capabilities will not give you great sound without great speakers.

I suggest you continue your research, but before you buy anything, consider carefully what you really want. Is it more important to use the speakers in your ceiling, or get really high quality sound? Maybe you want high quality stereo music, and are willing to settle for lower quality TV surround.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

heres what i have/plan to get
4 Bose in ceiling speakers
2 floor speakers at the TV (future)
1 center speaker at the TV (future)

That is 7 speakers (4+2+1). Assuming you get a subwoofer, that would be 7.1.

So you will need a 7.1 AVR. Stereo means only 2 channels (speakers).

 

[bhavin]

Thanks guys for all the thoughful feedback!! I'm pretty new to this stuff and trying to figure out how to utilize whats in place already (4 Bose in ceiling)

Herbu, your right, i need to determine what route I really want to go rather than a random assortment of hardware not being utilized to its best ability.
I think everyone answered my initial question that AVR is the way to go, stereo is not going to do anything close to what i need.

The HK AVR 1710 model i ordered is retailing online for $500+ on most sites, amazon had a special on it for 299, new, not a refurb. That deal to me was too good to pass up given the features/specs (2 zone, bt, airplay, 100watts etc..) compared to anything else with that was obviously well over 500. Its on back order and I wont see it til probably close to christmas, so i can technically still cancel without any issue.

What is an alternative receiver in my range that will deliver what I need? Initially i just wanted something to power the bose speakers already in the house. My thought was, hey i can play music to the 4 in ceiling, leaving me 3 channels to use for surround sound.

There is a zone 2 on the HK receiver, on the back it says 'assigned amp' i figured that would be used for the floorstanding speakers for the TV and the Front L/R and Surround L/R would be used for the 4 in ceilings... am i totally misunderstanding all this!? Would this type of configuration allow me to play music to ALL speakers, and then when using it for TV viewing use only the floorstanding speakers?

Whats the critical specs i need to pay close attention to when pairing up receiver to speakers?

• Stereo power: 100 watts per channel, two channels driven
@ 6/8 ohms, 20Hz – 20kHz, <0.07% THD
• Multichannel power: 100 watts per channel, two channels
driven @ 6/8 ohms, 20Hz – 20kHz, <0.07% THD
• Input sensitivity/impedance: 250mV/27k ohms

STill cant put a link in here, but from the specs sheet:
Multiroom system with audio output and assignable amplifier
Control the audio in separate rooms with a single receiver. Thanks to
the AVR 1710’s assignable amplifiers, you can power the audio in a
second room without adding additional components.

 

[herbu]

My thought was, hey i can play music to the 4 in ceiling, leaving me 3 channels to use for surround sound.

There is a zone 2 on the HK receiver, on the back it says 'assigned amp' i figured that would be used for the floorstanding speakers for the TV and the Front L/R and Surround L/R would be used for the 4 in ceilings... am i totally misunderstanding all this!?

Yes, I think there may be some misunderstanding.
Here is a speaker description with their traditional usage:

Front Left/Right: These are the 2 speakers traditionally used for stereo music. They are in the front of the room, and flank the TV.

Center: This is the speaker placed above or below your TV. It is where most, (~85% ?), of the sound in TV/Movies comes from, including almost all voice. People who have a L/R but no Center get a "phantom" center effect. When your AVR detects there is no Center, it sends all Center sounds to the L/R equally. The same sound coming from both your L/R at exactly the same time and volume is interpreted by your brain as coming from the middle... thus a "phantom" center.

Surround Left/Right: These are speakers usually placed beside or a little behind your main listening position. In TV/Movies, these speakers don't get a whole lot of use, but they get the sounds that are supposed to be coming from offscreen, like a car door opening, door creaking, footsteps, etc. A system with Left/Center/Right and Surround Left/Right is a 5.0 system, (5 separate channels).

Surround Rear Left/Right: These are behind your chair, and get the same type of effects as the Surround L/R. If you add these to a 5.0 system, you get a 7.0 system.

Subwoofers: These are the .1 in a 5.1 or 7.1 system, or if you have 2 of them, the .2 in 5.2 or 7.2.

You have 4 speakers in the ceiling. I don't know anybody that would suggest using them for anything but surrounds. I don't think you'll be happy using the front 2 ceiling speakers as your Front L/R. With that in mind, you need Front L/R and a Center. You will use your L/R for stereo music, and all of your speakers for TV/Movies. Your AVR will have a "multi channel stereo" mode, or something like that. It will send the Left half of a stereo signal to all your Left speakers, and ditto for the Rights. It will kinda tend to fill up the room with stereo music and may be useful for parties, but the likely lower quality of your ceiling speakers than your fronts will probably make it undesirable for personal music listening.

The "assigned amp" gives you some flexibility, but likely something you won't play with. Instead of a traditional 7.2 system, it is possible to have Front Wides, Front Highs, and maybe even you want to drive a couple speakers in another room or on the porch. Your HK has 7 channels, meaning it has 7 built-in amplifiers that can drive 7 speakers. You may chose to only use 5.1 in your main room, and drive 2 speakers on the porch, in which case you can "assign" those 2 channels to get L/R instead of Surround Rear L/R, or some other configuration.

Bottom line, I suggest you look at new L/C/R speakers, and 1 or 2 subwoofers. Use the ceilings speakers for surrounds.

 

[bhavin]

Thanks Herbu for the speaker breakdown, that helps with the understanding!!! I do apologize though... i left out an important piece of detail... The 4 in ceiling speakers are NOT in the same room as the TV, they are in the dining room and a separate formal living room, totally separate from the TV. I would not use these 4 speakers for my surround sound at all.

I would only be looking into getting net new Front L/R and Center speakers to enhance our tv viewing experience. I would kind of take the approach to using 3 channels for the 'surround sound' and the other 4 as my other zone. Does that make any sense or am I just super confused!?

With this sort of setup, on what channels would the speakers go to? Assuming I have bought new floor and center speakers to go with the TV

 

[herbu]

Thanks Herbu for the speaker breakdown, that helps with the understanding!!! I do apologize though... i left out an important piece of detail... The 4 in ceiling speakers are NOT in the same room as the TV, they are in the dining room and a separate formal living room, totally separate from the TV. I would not use these 4 speakers for my surround sound at all.

I would only be looking into getting net new Front L/R and Center speakers to enhance our tv viewing experience. I would kind of take the approach to using 3 channels for the 'surround sound' and the other 4 as my other zone. Does that make any sense or am I just super confused!?

With this sort of setup, on what channels would the speakers go to? Assuming I have bought new floor and center speakers to go with the TV

Do you want to listen to different sources at the same time with both your TV speakers and ceiling speakers? For example, watching a movie with your L/C/R, and listening to a CD with your ceiling speakers, at the same time.

 

[TLS Guy]

As I explained before you need a receiver with a zone 2 out that outputs to zone two from digital sources. Zone 2 for the Bose speakers.

In case you need a separate power amp to drive the Bose speakers make sure you have zone 2 preouts.

So you HT will be driven by the L,C,R and surround speaker outputs. your Bose speakers, if you can use them will be driven from zone 2. We still do not know what Bose speakers you have up there.

 

[bhavin]

Herbu - No, I highly doubt i will have two different sources simultaneously. If listening to audio source then I would ideally want to utilize ALL the speakers, L/R/C and the bose. When watching a movie or something, i would only want to use the L/R/C speakers and NOT the Bose.

TLS Guy - I just moved in and dont have all my tools/ladder to pop off that speaker cover yet. I hopped up on a chair and tried with a knife but it wasn't cooperating with me...

Is this HK AVR 1710 not capable of supporting Zone 2, the specs all say it has zone 2 capability. IN looking at the rear image, i see channels for the following starting left to right:
1) Front Right 2)Front Left 3)Front Height R SBR Zone 2R 4)Front Height L SBL Zone 2L 5)Surr Right 6)Surr Left 7)Center

Do ports 3&4 comprise my zone 2? Since there are only 2 available channels, where would the 4 Bose get plugged into if that was to be my "zone 2"? Do i need a receiver with more than 2 available channels comprising zone 2?

This is all assuming the Bose will even work.

Thanks again guys for all the great feedback and keeping this thread going with me!

 

[Topken]

Yes it does have Zone 2 output. They are mixed in with the Height channels apparently. Heres a good picture of the back of the AVR

The Height channels can either be used for Height or for Zone 2. I also see Analogue AKA RCA outs for Zone 2 don't know if that can be used in combination with the other Zone 2 output or not.

 

[TLS Guy]

That receiver has speaker level zone 2 outs and it does have zone two preouts that will drive a distribution amp if you need it.

Your Bose speakers will have to be driven from Zone 2, this is your only option.

This is from page 19 of the manual.

Only the following analog audio sources are available to zone 2: the internal radio,an ipod/iphone device or a USB memory device inserted into the AVR’s USB port and up to two source devices connected to the rear-panel Analog Audio In 1 and 2 connectors.

If that is enough devices OK. If you want to play CDs and other digital sources such as streamed radio, then this is not the receiver for you. You have to be clear about what sources you want to play over the ceiling speakers. The ones listed are the only ones that will. There are receivers that will put anything out over zone 2, this one will not.

Now the next problem is hopefully the speakers are wired for stereo and not mono, and that there are impedance matching controls in the wall.

You need a good installer to see what speakers you have, what the controls are, and how they are wired and for what impedance. This is crucial to not only make it work properly but to avoid damage.

So you need dual channel controls in both rooms connected together. They need to be wired in such a fashion that when the left channels of each room are combined, it presents an impedance of 8 ohms to the left speaker terminals of zone 2. Likewise for the combined right speakers and controls in each room.

What I have told you here is vital. There is no room for guessing or error here.

This is really as far as we can go to help you until we know what exactly what your speakers are, what the controls are and how they are set up and wired. I'm assuming they are some type of impedance matching control, but they might not be and if they are not impedance matching volume controls will have to be installed and properly wired. In order to properly wire them the precise spec of those ceiling speakers needs to be known.

 

[lsiberian]

I had an HK receiver that work just fine for a few years. If you are a on a tight budget you might look at some Infinity Primus speakers(find a deal) to fill out a nice budget setup.

I suggest you at the very least look for some good speakers on craigslist.

Like this sweet deal.

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/ele/4793725985.html