Tuning a Pair of Line Array Towers

C

conmoto22

Audiophyte
Eleganza 7' speakers (65-20khz, 4 ohms,200w, 82db sen.)
PSW 505 ADCOM 545II
UMC-1 Pre-Pro

The speakers are made of quality components, so I know there's potential, but I've already hit the bottom limits (reducing mid frequencies) of the UMC-1 with its in system equalizer. I've used the UMC-1 auto EQ microphone setup and am convinced it is complete dung. The result was not a balanced sound. The clarity is there, but the frequency balance is not.

I am close with the UMC-1, but I think an external equalizer in addition to the adjustments on the UMC-1 will get me tuned in.

Question: I am looking at a 31 band equalizer intended for pro audio, but it only uses XLR and 1/4 connections. Is there any reason I couldn't simply convert 1/4 to RCA and use in my home system?

Other information if it is helpful to you:

- Recommended Power: 200w
- Nominal Impedance: 4
- (1) .75" Mocciso silk-dome Super Tweeter
- (40) 11.5" Bambina titanium inverted dome extended range transducers
- (15) 3.5" Bambino aluminum inverted dome tweeters

I have the UMC-1 crossover set to 70 for mains and 80 for sub.
 
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WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai


Sure you can use RCA to 1/4” adapters, but cables with the correct ends would be even better. What equalizer are you considering? There are a lot of cheap pro-audio equalizers out there that are not worthy of a systems like yours.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


 
C

conmoto22

Audiophyte

Sure you can use RCA to 1/4” adapters, but cables with the correct ends would be even better. What equalizer are you considering? There are a lot of cheap pro-audio equalizers out there that are not worthy of a systems like yours.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

I know nothing about equalizer brands, but I was looking at purchasing a a DBX 231
 
WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai

Yeah, at $150 it’s definitely a low-end model, I wouldn’t touch that one with a 10-ft. pole. Did you check the specs? Only 90 dB signal-to-noise with. And no qualification as to A or Z weighting, but it’s probably A weighting, which ignores low- and high-frequency noise. By excluding noise at the frequency extremes, an A-weighted spec can “improve” S/N by as much as 8-10 dB.

People don’t understand how difficult it is to make a high-quality 1/3-octave equalizer. For example AudioControl made some first-class 1/3-octave equalizers in the early-to-mid 90s that listed for $500. They were mono units, which means $1000 for a stereo pair. Twenty years ago.

The thing to understand is that anytime you boost a filter, noise is boosted with it. If your UMC-1 has a S/N on the order of 100 dB (just throwing a number out, I can’t find any specs on it) and you introduce a component with a 90 dB S/N, you’ve raised your noise floor 10 dB right out of the gate just by connecting it to your system. A filter boosted 4 dB at 1000 Hz means another 4 dB S/N loss at that frequency.

So while the price of the AudioControl equalizers seems outrageous, they had a S/N of 112 dB, which is low enough to keep noise introduced after equalization at a minimum. There are also other things that make a superior equalizer such as filter accuracy, variable- or constant-Q filters etc. that I won’t go into here.

If you’re serious about an outboard equalizer I’d recommend the Yamaha YDP2006 digital parametric. It listed for over $2000 when new, but you can commonly find them on ebay for under $200. It will blow that dbx out of the water. In the link in my signature you can find a review. It’s long but you might read through at least the second and third posts. If nothing else you’ll learn a lot about what to look for in a good equalizer.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Eleganza 7' speakers (65-20khz, 4 ohms,200w, 82db sen.)
PSW 505 ADCOM 545II
UMC-1 Pre-Pro

The speakers are made of quality components, so I know there's potential, but I've already hit the bottom limits (reducing mid frequencies) of the UMC-1 with its in system equalizer. I've used the UMC-1 auto EQ microphone setup and am convinced it is complete dung. The result was not a balanced sound. The clarity is there, but the frequency balance is not.

I am close with the UMC-1, but I think an external equalizer in addition to the adjustments on the UMC-1 will get me tuned in.

Question: I am looking at a 31 band equalizer intended for pro audio, but it only uses XLR and 1/4 connections. Is there any reason I couldn't simply convert 1/4 to RCA and use in my home system?

Other information if it is helpful to you:

- Recommended Power: 200w
- Nominal Impedance: 4
- (1) .75" Mocciso silk-dome Super Tweeter
- (40) 11.5" Bambina titanium inverted dome extended range transducers
- (15) 3.5" Bambino aluminum inverted dome tweeters

I have the UMC-1 crossover set to 70 for mains and 80 for sub.
Is this the lunacy you have got caught up in?

The answer is you don't and can't equalize, "tune" an abortion like that.

You have two options.

1). Sell it on to an idiot.

2). Take it to the dump.

If you are interested in knowing why, I will tell you on request, but it will make no difference.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Tell me you didn't pay for them speakers. At $50.00 for both you've been had.
 
C

conmoto22

Audiophyte
YES! I sincerely want to know why you believe these are garbage. You won't hurt my feelings. I'm here to be educated. It would help me if you wrote in technical terms regarding the actual product rather than general personal beliefs of the manufacturer. i've already read old complaints about Monster, but nothing negative about the speakers.

I'm pretty sure I got a fair deal on the speakers @ $0.00. I'm storing them indefinitely for a friend. I've got nothing to lose other than space.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
YES! I sincerely want to know why you believe these are garbage. You won't hurt my feelings. I'm here to be educated. It would help me if you wrote in technical terms regarding the actual product rather than general personal beliefs of the manufacturer. i've already read old complaints about Monster, but nothing negative about the speakers.

I'm pretty sure I got a fair deal on the speakers @ $0.00. I'm storing them indefinitely for a friend. I've got nothing to lose other than space.
These speakers are a mess. Your first clue should be that the sensitivity is only 82 db despite all those drivers.

Now line arrays are hard to bring off. The reason is driver interference and comb filtering. Worse those are open baffle. This means for certain there is front rear cancellation. If you build a speaker like this there is no passive crossover solution that can work. This design attempts the impossible. If you do attempt a design like this, then active filters are mandatory. If you Google Siegfried Linkwitz who has published and designed such systems, you will see how complex the task is.

Monster have pulled all the pdf on these speakers. However I have been in this game long enough to be 100% certain you are wasting your time trying to get any decent sound from these speakers. I did manage to find the odd review and they describe the sound I would expect, a weak thin sound that is dwarfed by the bass module.

In short this design has no technical validity whatever. You will never Eq this speaker and get anything worth listening to. The reason is that no equalizer will ever have enough band for all the peaks and nulls, and even if it did the phase response and aberrations would kill the result.

This is the first time I have been aware of this monstrosity. It really is the worst type of "white van" speaker that Monster put their name on.
 
C

conmoto22

Audiophyte
TLS Guy. I appreciate your reply. I'm a little sad about this, because they are beautifully designed speakers and it seems to be a HUGE waste of resources for whoever designed them. So they really are useless? Why would any manufacturer go through the trouble?! All I can think is "what a waste". Maybe someone can do some good with the drivers.

Looks like my trusty Mirage 360s with the old Velodyne 1500 will remain.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
TLS Guy. I appreciate your reply. I'm a little sad about this, because they are beautifully designed speakers and it seems to be a HUGE waste of resources for whoever designed them. So they really are useless? Why would any manufacturer go through the trouble?! All I can think is "what a waste". Maybe someone can do some good with the drivers.

Looks like my trusty Mirage 360s with the old Velodyne 1500 will remain.
They may be utter crap..... or not.

It doesn't give us a good feeling about them based on the specs and the name "Monster". The sensitivity of 82dB/2.83v/m for a line array is really bad, among other things.

But have you listened to them? How do they sound to YOU?
 
C

conmoto22

Audiophyte
They may be utter crap..... or not.

It doesn't give us a good feeling about them based on the specs and the name "Monster". The sensitivity of 82dB/2.83v/m for a line array is really bad, among other things.

But have you listened to them? How do they sound to YOU?
Yes, I've listened to them. They sound…large. My lack of technical terminology will come through here, but unfiltered, they sound raw. Really loud in the mids. Reducing the mid frequencies as much as possible is what gave me hope. It made a huge difference. I attempted to use pink noise and a RTA (cheap iPad apps) to analyze the sound, but that was a waste of time in my hands. Next I hope to find a sine sweep app to learn more.

All the frequencies are there. It's hard to explain, but I feel like it just needs to be shaped. These are designed to be bi-wired, but I'm using the supplied terminal jumper(?) and only using a pair of wires per speaker. Do I need to somehow separate the high vs low in each speaker in another way? Maybe I need to break these speakers open to see what passive crossovers are inside?

I really wish I know more about this science. Overwhelming.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yes, I've listened to them. They sound…large. My lack of technical terminology will come through here, but unfiltered, they sound raw. Really loud in the mids. Reducing the mid frequencies as much as possible is what gave me hope. It made a huge difference. I attempted to use pink noise and a RTA (cheap iPad apps) to analyze the sound, but that was a waste of time in my hands. Next I hope to find a sine sweep app to learn more.

All the frequencies are there. It's hard to explain, but I feel like it just needs to be shaped. These are designed to be bi-wired, but I'm using the supplied terminal jumper(?) and only using a pair of wires per speaker. Do I need to somehow separate the high vs low in each speaker in another way? Maybe I need to break these speakers open to see what passive crossovers are inside?

I really wish I know more about this science. Overwhelming.
So the sound is pretty bad (raw) unless you can do something about it?

Pretty much all the good speakers will sound pretty good in almost every room without any kind of "tuning". They just sound good. Some EQ (like Audyssey & Dynamic EQ) can enhance the sound. But even without any EQ, good speakers will sound good right out of the box and into almost every single room. The bad speakers will sound bad in every room no matter what you do to it.

Yeah, if had those speakers, I would list them on the local Craigslist and see if anyone wants to buy them.
 
C

conmoto22

Audiophyte
Whoa…I just had a thought. Is it possible that these speakers don't have passive crossovers? Is that ever done? What the heck is my solution if the full spectrum of frequencies is being sent unfiltered? My current pre-pro has a single crossover setting to the mains, which is set to 70. Without a high/low pass filter I'm getting 70hz-20khz to all 56 drivers per side! No wonder it sounds "raw".

Again, assuming there is no passive filter inside the speaker. Is my description of "raw" characteristic of a speaker with no passive filter?
 
G

gdizzle

Audiophyte
Whoa…I just had a thought. Is it possible that these speakers don't have passive crossovers? Is that ever done? What the heck is my solution if the full spectrum of frequencies is being sent unfiltered? My current pre-pro has a single crossover setting to the mains, which is set to 70. Without a high/low pass filter I'm getting 70hz-20khz to all 56 drivers per side! No wonder it sounds "raw".

Again, assuming there is no passive filter inside the speaker. Is my description of "raw" characteristic of a speaker with no passive filter?
I just saw all this crap being assumed by these people in the forums.I know this is an older topic but I almost fell off my bed laughing. I have personally owned these tower speakers since they came out along with many other speakers. They are absolutely stunning when setup properly aND given sufficient power. The only draw back to these towers is a slight roll off at the upper end of it's "supertweeter". These drivers are engineered by aurasound and are top quality. The sensitivity is very low but at 4ohm a good amp is needed anyway. Currently I own triton ones, paradigm prestige 95fs, and revel f208 and I will put the line array (properly setup) against my other 3 systems with absolutely no problem. I've been in this industry for 20 years and have seen and owned almost any speaker imaginable. Most people hate monster for whatever reason but one thing I can say with absolutely confidence is these speakers were not some fly by night speaker. They had millions of r&d and are masterful in their craftmanship. Are they the best speakers? Not even close but these forum trolls have no idea . They read spec sheets and think they no it all. I've lived it ,owned them,any others. I have over 1 million in speakers and electronics in my home and can critique speakers with the best of them. Give these things power and watch them come alive. You'll hear the rolloff but to say they sound thin is ludacris
 
C

conmoto22

Audiophyte
I just saw all this crap being assumed by these people in the forums.I know this is an older topic but I almost fell off my bed laughing. I have personally owned these tower speakers since they came out along with many other speakers. They are absolutely stunning when setup properly aND given sufficient power. The only draw back to these towers is a slight roll off at the upper end of it's "supertweeter". These drivers are engineered by aurasound and are top quality. The sensitivity is very low but at 4ohm a good amp is needed anyway. Currently I own triton ones, paradigm prestige 95fs, and revel f208 and I will put the line array (properly setup) against my other 3 systems with absolutely no problem. I've been in this industry for 20 years and have seen and owned almost any speaker imaginable. Most people hate monster for whatever reason but one thing I can say with absolutely confidence is these speakers were not some fly by night speaker. They had millions of r&d and are masterful in their craftmanship. Are they the best speakers? Not even close but these forum trolls have no idea . They read spec sheets and think they no it all. I've lived it ,owned them,any others. I have over 1 million in speakers and electronics in my home and can critique speakers with the best of them. Give these things power and watch them come alive. You'll hear the rolloff but to say they sound thin is ludacris
PLEASE! Tell me how to set these up.
 
G

gdizzle

Audiophyte
Text me at five 0 five nine nine 9 seven 8 seven two. I can help you over the phone if it helps.
 
rojo

rojo

Audioholic Samurai
PLEASE! Tell me how to set these up.
Step 1: buy 15 two-channel, 4-ohm stable amps + 8 miniDSP 2x4's + 8 line-level amplifiers + a bunch of patch cables and Y cables. You'll probably also need some equipment racks and a couple of additional 20A circuits run into the room. Grab a laptop and a calibrated measurement mic if you don't have one, and put in for two weeks of vacation leave at work to give yourself time to measure and EQ each driver....

... I have over 1 million in speakers and electronics in my home....
I'm not surprised. With those speakers, you'd about have to, wouldn't you? :)
 
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