Looking for A/V pre out >6V output

[Acoustat]

I'm looking for a beefy volts out AVR (pre out) for my amp and main speakers.
8-10 would be super, but I figure 6V pre outs would suffice.
I would like to stay between $500 and $1000 if possible.

I like the 4K and 3D and possibly air play features.
Audyssey above basic hopefully or similar.

This one sounds perfect, except the 2V pre out, like the outlaw 975 max 2.5V...
RX-V777BT - RX-V - AV Receivers - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States


My Denon X4000 is just working too hard with my mains on separate amp
to be able to load up other speakers for surround I'm afraid.
If one single amp, is driving the pre outs, and I wanted to add a pair of
Martin Logan EM-ESLs for a rear channel, or their smaller bookshelf's at 4-5 ohms
would the AVR have the reserve with the volume already at -3db or I forget, 70+ %
driving the mains through separate amp to adequately operate a pair of electrostatics
on the rear?

I sure don't understand how odyssey can figure out and blend such a mismatch of loudspeakers
and internal and external amps. It is beyond me.

 

[crossedover]

Your denon should have no issues what so ever. I suggest you measure the output voltage to satisfy your over thought concerns. Your seriously making this way harder than it needs be.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-voltage-gain

 

[PENG]

I'm looking for a beefy volts out AVR (pre out) for my amp and main speakers.
8-10 would be super, but I figure 6V pre outs would suffice.
I would like to stay between $500 and $1000 if possible.

I like the 4K and 3D and possibly air play features.
Audyssey above basic hopefully or similar.[/QUOTE]

That is a very tall order if you need the 4K, 3D and air play features otherwise in your specified price range you could get the older Marantz that Gene tested at 7V unclipped. I have not been able to find any lab measurements for the new preamps or avrs so you can only go by their published specs that are totally unreliable because of the many reasons I cited before.

This one sounds perfect, except the 2V pre out, like the outlaw 975 max 2.5V...
RX-V777BT - RX-V - AV Receivers - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States

Not even that, the RX-V777BT published specs for the pre-outs is 1V, just like its siblings. Their so called "maximum" will be higher, or much higher, depending on the stated conditions. Again I have tried my best to explain this many times now, you cannot compare them base on published specs due to lack of standards and test/measurement methodologies. You can only compare those numbers if they are taken from the same test lab and preferably by the same person. Or you can compare products from the same manufacturers. Other than that you have to do the measurement and/or experiments yourself.

My Denon X4000 is just working too hard with my mains on separate amp
to be able to load up other speakers for surround I'm afraid.

I have my thought on this one, but will respond to your other thread.

If one single amp, is driving the pre outs, and I wanted to add a pair of
Martin Logan EM-ESLs for a rear channel, or their smaller bookshelf's at 4-5 ohms
would the AVR have the reserve with the volume already at -3db or I forget, 70+ %
driving the mains through separate amp to adequately operate a pair of electrostatics
on the rear?

As always, it depends on your room dimensions and how loud you listen to. If the main and the center are taken care of by a separate amp, some avr can handle those rears but again your carver has quite a bit lower gain than probably not a good idea.

I sure don't understand how odyssey can figure out and blend such a mismatch of loudspeakers
and internal and external amps. It is beyond me.

Audyssey, especially XT32 will try its best but it cannot perform magic. If the speaker sensitivity and amp gain mismatches are significant, Audyssey or any REQ system would run out of gas, or limited by the adjustments allowable by the host avr/prepro.

 

[Acoustat]

I was trying to get this nipped in the bud before a New England trip next week
while I could still exchange the Denon if need be. Just concerned that at
entertainment volume levels of 76% or -4 to -3db the AVR would gas out
with additional speakers. The front would be a last call item IF I ever do one.
If I do, it will be on the AVR.

PENG, what Marantz tested at 7V?
4K is optional as a TV will upscale, but 3D is more important to pass through from BRP.
Airplay is optional, nice feature.

I'm trying to separate any other threads or known issues, and go straight for volts with this thread.

Yeh, I saw that 1V on the Yamaha as I closed all open windows out last night.
I must have been remembering another AVR. Too many…so, this thread, as others who might know
could pass that along. I had given up on Marantz as several had reported locking up issues with the 1504 I think it was.
Lets get some volts pumping out and see what happens.

 

[Acoustat]

Your denon should have no issues what so ever. I suggest you measure the output voltage to satisfy your over thought concerns. Your seriously making this way harder than it needs be.

Amplifier Voltage Gain Explained – Matching Amp to Preamp | Audioholics

I'm beginning to get into that link a little bit and read it.
My Carver amp Gain: 29.5 dB
Your link:

Suppose you have a receiver that can deliver 1 volt RMS from its preamplifier outputs before clipping; if you pair this receiver with a high powered amplifier expecting a huge boost in headroom, you might be sorely disappointed if its voltage gain is a below average 27dB.

I should be ok then correct?

I'm Still reading…but if you're expecting me to run some tests, not having a volt meter, probably not having a tone CD
easily found from 25 yrs ago, then the ante has been increased as far as making this harder than it has to be.
Don't forget so fast, that I've been given multiple and in a couple instances, conflicting input. I'm not complaining about that
just wanted to integrate my system, which is more of a daunting task than I was lead to believe it would be.
That Bose Acoustimas I originally started to get…well lets just say discouragement makes it sound better LOL.
Not to mention 3 weeks of troubleshooting from multiple fronts including Denon tech support, and I would be $1000's less in the hole.
…but that's not the plan. Ggetting a big box stores once n done system sure sounds less an issue for everybody that's tried to help me.

You're saying the Denon should have no issues whatsoever, others say it's working too hard with just mains and should be shaking the house
and splitting my eardrums.

 

[PENG]

PENG, what Marantz tested at 7V?

I did post the link in your X-4000 thread but here it is again:

Marantz SR6004 Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics

If you don't have time to read the whole review, be sure to take note of what Gene said about the preamp outpout:

"With 0dBFS in, the SR6004 was able to output a whopping 7Vrms unclipped (<.1%THD +N). The 3rd order harmonic component was over 80dBv below the fundamental which was very good. Adjacent channel to channel crosstalk produced 81dB @ 1kHz, 65dB @ 10kHz which again is excellent."

 

[Acoustat]

I did post the link in your X-4000 thread but here it is again:

Marantz SR6004 Measurements and Analysis | Audioholics

If you don't have time to read the whole review, be sure to take note of what Gene said about the preamp outpout:

"With 0dBFS in, the SR6004 was able to output a whopping 7Vrms unclipped (<.1%THD +N). The 3rd order harmonic component was over 80dBv below the fundamental which was very good. Adjacent channel to channel crosstalk produced 81dB @ 1kHz, 65dB @ 10kHz which again is excellent."

Ok, thanks…again
Sounds like Marantz uses a little higher end sound staging or detail to sound than Denon
based on one comparison with the X4000, but the 4000 had more convenience features, including
the desirable Bass Eq. Both units, Marantz 6008 and 7007 have 4K, 3D and Airplay all easily within my price range.

Peng, do you think the Marantz 6008 or 7007 would have the same pre amplifier as that of the 6004 you linked, voltage particularly?
Between the 6008 and 7007 is there one you'd like to see me try over the other, and why?
The Marantz 7008 I believe, if I decipher the description right, offers Bass Eq or similar, but double the price of the X4000, can't do that.

 

[Acoustat]

> Marantz 7007 < .pdf spec sheet

Digital-D/A output: Rated output — 2 V (at 0 dB playback) Is this D/A what I'm looking for?
It's the only out Volts I can find on it, not necessarily the pre amp though.

 

[PENG]

Ok, thanks…again
Sounds like Marantz uses a little higher end sound staging or detail to sound than Denon
based on one comparison with the X4000, but the 4000 had more convenience features, including
the desirable Bass Eq. Both units, Marantz 6008 and 7007 have 4K, 3D and Airplay all easily within my price range.

Peng, do you think the Marantz 6008 or 7007 would have the same pre amplifier as that of the 6004 you linked, voltage particularly?
Between the 6008 and 7007 is there one you'd like to see me try over the other, and why?
The Marantz 7008 I believe, if I decipher the description right, offers Bass Eq or similar, but double the price of the X4000, can't do that.

The Marantz SR7008 fits between the Denon AVR-X4000 and AVR-4520 but it is outside your price range. Since don't have much luck with the X4000 then I would say the SR6008 is what you should get. I can't say for sure the 6008 would have the same high output as the 6004 but the chance is good. You can, again phone Marantz technical support about it, emphasize that you want him/her to confirm specifically the difference between the pre-out rated and maximum output voltage of the 6004 and 6008.

The reason I won't automatically assume they are the same is that I have seen the lab test results for the Denon 3805, 3808, 3808A (no idea what that one is, probably an U.K. model), 4308, 4310 and they are all different. The 3808A had the highest number, in excess of 18V RMS, incredible but that's what it was. So it is always possible that difference year models of the Marantz could also be different. Normally it shouldn't matter as long as you have more than 2 to 3V on hand but in your case for some mysterious reasons it seems to matter and I really don't know what to say about that any more.

Have you try Amazon for a used 6004? Those things tend to last forever. I am still using my 11 years old Denon AVR-3805 with may Parasound Halo A21 power amp based two channel music system.

By the way, I have 3 Denon AVR, 2 Marantz prepro, 1 Marantz preamp and 1 power amp and I can tell you those talks about Marantz having better sound quality is total BS fed by perpetual vicious circle of hearsay, not much truth to it. Surely there are differences between different models but a generalized statement like those (don't mean you at all..) does not make it factual.

 

[crossedover]

I'm beginning to get into that link a little bit and read it.
My Carver amp Gain: 29.5 dB
Your link:

I should be ok then correct?

I'm Still reading…but if you're expecting me to run some tests, not having a volt meter, probably not having a tone CD
easily found from 25 yrs ago, then the ante has been increased as far as making this harder than it has to be.
Don't forget so fast, that I've been given multiple and in a couple instances, conflicting input. I'm not complaining about that
just wanted to integrate my system, which is more of a daunting task than I was lead to believe it would be.
That Bose Acoustimas I originally started to get…well lets just say discouragement makes it sound better LOL.
Not to mention 3 weeks of troubleshooting from multiple fronts including Denon tech support, and I would be $1000's less in the hole.
…but that's not the plan. Ggetting a big box stores once n done system sure sounds less an issue for everybody that's tried to help me.

You're saying the Denon should have no issues whatsoever, others say it's working too hard with just mains and should be shaking the house
and splitting my eardrums.

A good multi meter is a handy tool, spending 80/$90 should be a good investment
I, without having measured, believe the preamp output voltage of the 4000 should be sufficient. Now I'm curious so I'm gonna take a trip to my local store and see if they will let me measure. I'll play a 30 second 60hz tone with the speakers off and see what the "hold" reads

 

[Acoustat]

A good multi meter is a handy tool, spending 80/$90 should be a good investment
I, without having measured, believe the preamp output voltage of the 4000 should be sufficient. Now I'm curious so I'm gonna take a trip to my local store and see if they will let me measure. I'll play a 30 second 60hz tone with the speakers off and see what the "hold" reads

LOL, I already, just this evening asked for a good pair of strippers for Christmas...
wire strippers would be ok too
You're right, I should have one.
According to that link on amps you provided, the speaker load also is culprit.


PENG the Amazon 6004 is available from 3rd parties only
rates 2.5 * from 15 reviews, and the 1st review starts out, the guy's on his 5th one,
with one still working. I know what they say about those reviews
but other models by Marantz seem a bit better on reviews, and I'm pretty
sure the 6004 is missing some key features too.

What do you make of the D/A out of 2V on the Marantz 7007.
I sure wish this key spec of the pre out was a standard
both in measurement and in the data sheet.

Guess you all don't want to hear that I cannot get my bookshelf
speakers to work in the surround out from the AVR.
I had the mains both with and w/o the Carver and neither way
played the surrounds with any amp assign or speaker config I could conjur,
5.1, 7.1, 9.1, large or small, set up assistant and so on...
I'll try Audyssey on them tomorrow.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I'm looking for a beefy volts out AVR (pre out) for my amp and main speakers.
8-10 would be super, but I figure 6V pre outs would suffice.

Why? I don’t think there is a power amp in existence that requires that kind of input voltage to reach maximum output.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Acoustat]

Why? I don’t think there is a power amp in existence that requires that kind of input voltage to reach maximum output.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Because my AVR is working too hard IMO to drive my amp and or, speakers.
I was making an attempt, at seperating from my thread depicting the issue,
but since you ask, my volume is at just this morning, 72% or -8db for us the
listeners, to carry on normal conversation with ease during moderate increased signals
and at 76% or -4db, we're encroaching on entertainment volumes with no subwoofer
only front 2ch. If I had a sub, I assume volume would be in the 80's as it was with the
Dynamic Volume engaged.

 

[PENG]

What do you make of the D/A out of 2V on the Marantz 7007.
I sure wish this key spec of the pre out was a standard
both in measurement and in the data sheet.

I believe it means the pre-outs are rated for 2V RMS for Digital inputs such as via those from BR/DVD players via HDMI, coax, optical etc.. Again, Marantz and Denon typical rated them 1.2V for analog inputs and 2V for Digital inputs so if you go by published specs, they all (including the X4000) have the same figures.

 

[Acoustat]

Wayne, I should add that my current preamp (NAD1700) is well matched to my amp.
The NAD maxes at 10V pre-out Normal, and 15V High.
The amp is driving 6, 9x46" electrostatic panels, 3 each side which I have driven at most
with the preamp @ 75% volume, which would probably be ~ 1000w/ch pk. (subtracting a lot of bass for protection)
My meters are analog and scaled to 8 ohm but am using at 4 ohm load so I can only ball park the actual peak.
I guarantee you, you won't carry on normal conversation in the room at 40% volume. You wouldn't want to.
At 40-50% volume you're hopefully intoxicated by the performance, and conversation occurs at halftime.

I ran Audyssey again, with the Minimus 11 bookshelf's. They test ok, and are considerably louder than the mains of course.
I had these bookshelf's in my '69 Olds 98 30 years ago. They still have a place in the test life.
They test fine in Test Tone on the AVR, but I am missing something to activate them.
Will call Denon tomorrow and try troubleshooting 1 more time, then I give up. Nearly 3 weeks of troubleshooting has taken its toll
with 2 units. If those that have tried to help have grown weary of it, imagine how I feel.
My thanks for your patience, but mine's running thin on this end. Lemme get this surround amp activated with tech support
tomorrow and see what happens from there

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mracoustat/5419301858/in/photostream/
^ These are the same speakers I'm using. If you check the comment, the user says
the Carver Silver 7's are a best match for them. I didn't know that. Click the picture from there
shows the back side of the speakers with the MK-2123 drivers

I need to get my own pics up of them, but this one has such a clean modern room look
http://www.audiocircuit.com/A-Images/AA-Brands/A/Acoustat-ACO/Spectra_33__-F-004-941-ACO.jpg