Room EQ systems for AVP/AVR users thread

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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
PENG said:
I am not aware of a thread for Room EQ systems such as Anthem ARC, Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, Trinnov, minidsp etc., so I hope this won't be a duplicate. Since those systems are often packaged with AVPs and AVRs, I think this is the right place for it. If not, I am counting on mods to move it to where they think it belongs.

There are no shortage of information for Audyssey but no so much for the others. I can't find anything for the MCACC and YPAO systems other than owner's thread and those from the Pioneer and Yamaha's websites.

It would be great to know what others think of their Room Eq systems including users who may not like what Room EQ software, such as Audyssey does to their preferred sound, but still use some of their features such as DEQ while bypassing them for the front L/R channels. I know ADTG is one of those who do just that, i.e. bypass FL/R by loves DEQ.

For me, I have always been happy with Audyssey's performance in setting up my sub. Now I am even more impressed as it turns out SubEQHT has done a very good job setting up my PC12U with the newly acquired PB13U.

So please tell us what system you use, and share your thoughts and comments on their effectiveness/performances. If you know of any good reads on the less popular systems such as MCACC and YPAO, please add to the following collection of links.

Feature News Stories: Automated Room Correction Explained

http://www.anthemav.com/downloads/ARC-1_PDS.pdf

ABSOLUTE AUDIO & VISUAL - Anthem Room Correction (ARC) for the Anthem D1 and D2 SSP

Ultra Audio "TWBAS" -- Getting Real: Anthem Room Correction and Anthem Statement D2 Audio/Video Processor (7/2008)

Anthem Room Correction (ARC) System - Part 1 - HomeTheaterHiFi.com

MultEQ | Audyssey

How to MultEQ | Audyssey

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/forums/84181-Audyssey-101

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/73284-microphone-placement

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/76175-Subwoofer-setup-and-MultEQ

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/105628-MultEQ-Pro-vs-MultEQ-XT-and-MultEQ-XT3

Audyssey MultEQ FAQ and Setup Guide - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

Acoustic Correction | Trinnov Audio

Loudspeaker/Room Optimization | Trinnov Audio

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?32125-Trinnov-vs-Neptune-Audio-vs-Audyssey-MultiEQ-XT-vs-Parc-vs-ARC

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/90425-review-dual-sub-eq-minidsp-audyssey-xt.html

http://www.audioproducts.com.au/downloadcenter/DOCs/brochures/denon/AudysseyFAQweb.pdf
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Hey Peng... Good thread. Unfortunately, the guy who reported on YPAO incorrectly made the universal assumption that YPAO could not identify the correct speaker sizes which forces me to ask how old the article really is. In my experience in the room that I have now, YPAO correctly got the speaker sizes correct for all 3 curves done two times. It also doesn't take notice of the new YPAO and the post adjustments that can be made after YPAO has been run, something that can't be said for other RC facilities.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
3db said:
Hey Peng... Good thread. Unfortunately, the guy who reported on YPAO incorrectly made the universal assumption that YPAO could not identify the correct speaker sizes which forces me to ask how old the article really is. In my experience in the room that I have now, YPAO correctly got the speaker sizes correct for all 3 curves done two times. It also doesn't take notice of the new YPAO and the post adjustments that can be made after YPAO has been run, something that can't be said for other RC facilities.
Click to expand...
May be I did not search hard enough for YPAO reviews but that's why I asked for help. Mind you I always try to avoid posting too many links to reviews by various forum member. Not that I am biased in any way but I assume it is good to know more about the reviewing source.

I searched again and found 3 more on YPAO. In case you have not come across them yet, follow the links and enjoy some good reads.

Yamaha RX-A2020 Menu System & YPAO Room EQ | Audioholics

Music in the Round #65 | Stereophile.com

Yamaha RX-A1040 7.2 A/V Receiver Review - HomeTheaterHiFi.com


In case you are too busy on a cloudy Saturday, the reviewer in the last link had the following to say:

"If I had to pick out the best thing about the Yamaha’s sound, it would be the dynamics. The RX-A1040 sounded more dynamic than my Oppo BDP-105 driving a 1,000 watt per channel power amplifier directly. I’d probably credit this to good matching on Yamaha’s part between their pre and power amp circuitry. Well done!"

I wish Rich (who thought 105 direct to A51 sounded better than AV8801) was in the same room so he could have compared notes with the reviewer or told him what he (the reviewer) did wrong :D

"When I switched to multi-channel, one thing that surprised me greatly was how much YPAO homogenized the voicing of my disparate speakers. My main speakers are by Axiom, my surrounds by Polk, and my center by Klipsch, but after YPAO, I could have sworn, from the sound of them, that they were a matched set! Attaboy, Yamaha!"

I still prefer D&M only because of Audyssey's SubEQHT performance, and of course YMMV. In my room I just can't stand the thought of not having well EQ'ed subs for HT enjoyment.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
PENG said:
I still prefer D&M only because of Audyssey's SubEQHT performance, and of course YMMV. In my room I just can't stand the thought of not having well EQ'ed subs for HT enjoyment.
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Audyssey has sold me for life (probably) just because of Dynamic EQ, which no other software that I've seen can do for me.

But again, whatever sounds best to the individual is the best thing. Getting that FR flat and tapering the treble according to all the research in the world doesn't mean much unless it sounds great to the individual.

If Yamaha sounds best to the person, then that is the best for him. If Pioneer sounds best to him, then that is best for him. If Audyssey, ARC, Trinnov, Dirac, Lyngdorf sounds best to him, then that is best for him. :D
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
PENG said:
May be I did not search hard enough for YPAO reviews but that's why I asked for help. Mind you I always try to avoid posting too many links to reviews by various forum member. Not that I am biased in any way but I assume it is good to know more about the reviewing source.

I searched again and found 3 more on YPAO. In case you have not come across them yet, follow the links and enjoy some good reads.

Yamaha RX-A2020 Menu System & YPAO Room EQ | Audioholics

Music in the Round #65 | Stereophile.com

Yamaha RX-A1040 7.2 A/V Receiver Review - HomeTheaterHiFi.com


In case you are too busy on a cloudy Saturday, the reviewer in the last link had the following to say:

"If I had to pick out the best thing about the Yamaha’s sound, it would be the dynamics. The RX-A1040 sounded more dynamic than my Oppo BDP-105 driving a 1,000 watt per channel power amplifier directly. I’d probably credit this to good matching on Yamaha’s part between their pre and power amp circuitry. Well done!"

I wish Rich (who thought 105 direct to A51 sounded better than AV8801) was in the same room so he could have compared notes with the reviewer or told him what he (the reviewer) did wrong :D

"When I switched to multi-channel, one thing that surprised me greatly was how much YPAO homogenized the voicing of my disparate speakers. My main speakers are by Axiom, my surrounds by Polk, and my center by Klipsch, but after YPAO, I could have sworn, from the sound of them, that they were a matched set! Attaboy, Yamaha!"

I still prefer D&M only because of Audyssey's SubEQHT performance, and of course YMMV. In my room I just can't stand the thought of not having well EQ'ed subs for HT enjoyment.
Click to expand...
Re: Music in the round:
An AVS posting a while back had an image of Kal's room (in NY I think) and the seats were against a wall. This might account for the need for REQ.
There is consistent posting that pointing to YPAO applying very little EQ'ing in the bass region. This seems backwards to me.

Re: HomeTheaterHifi:
There have posts with varied results connecting the BDP-105(D) directly to an amp. Perhaps impedance issues to occur with certain amps since the output and input impedances vary with frequency.
I did hear differenced listening (sighted and level matched using an OmniMic) to HA-1, BDP-105D, and Marantz AV8801 (Pure Direct) connected via an XLR switch to the A51 amp.

The differences were not earth shattering. The BDP-105D was a slightly less bright than the others. the Marantz was perhaps the brightest but the HA-1 was my preference because of the dynamics detail.
As for the laid back midrange laid back comment, if the Yamaha was indeed adding more high-end detail, that could account for observed tonal balance.

Were I in the market for a Preamp now, I would look at the Yamaha 5000 or maybe wait for the Marantz AV7702. After my 8801 two trigger failures, Yamaha quality is appealing ;)

Marantz may improved their thermal design in the newer model. Gone is that copper plate (marketing feature) which did not have many holes for airflow and may have contributed to the heat buildup. Also, they removed that Ethernet hub, which was on the wrong side of the plate ;)

The Marantz AV7702 includes XT32 and the improved HDAM models over the 8801. The list for $2K so the street prices is going to pretty appealing. It even has Atmos if you are into festooning your room with speakers. :p :D

- Rich
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
RichB said:
Were I in the market for a Preamp now, I would look at the Yamaha 5000 or maybe wait for the Marantz AV7702. After my 8801 two trigger failures, Yamaha quality is appealing ;)
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I kind of wonder about reliability of all brands in general these days.

Newer definitely does not guarantee better quality.

Is Yamaha really more reliable than Marantz or just more reliable than your Marantz?

You might have a history of equipment abuse with speakers, amps, and pre-pros. :D

I'm just hoping my pre-pro lasts forever. :D
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
AcuDefTechGuy said:
I kind of wonder about reliability of all brands in general these days.

Newer definitely does not guarantee better quality.
Click to expand...
No, but it is an opportunity ;)

AcuDefTechGuy said:
Is Yamaha really more reliable than Marantz or just more reliable than your Marantz?
Click to expand...
My dealer told me about 5% of the 200 Marantz 8801's he sold had trigger fail.
You got me there, I am not worried about the reliability of your AVP, but I don't think you have anything to worry about there. :p

AcuDefTechGuy said:
You might have a history of equipment abuse with speakers, amps, and pre-pros. :D
Click to expand...
I beg you pardon.
Marantz on an open shelf gets hot as hell and triggers fail.
Salon's midrange fail because of a design issue known to Harmon.
Parasound center channel (hardly used infant mortality issue)
Repaired an Outlaw that I bought used (did I mention it was used ;))
ATI hum, but they sometimes do that. ;)

I'm just hoping my pre-pro lasts forever. :D
Click to expand...
I hope so too, because the AVP is fantastic :D

- Rich
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
RichB said:
No, but it is an opportunity ;)

My dealer told me about 5% of the 200 Marantz 8801's he sold had trigger fail.
You got me there, I am not worried about the reliability of your AVP, but I don't think you have anything to worry about there. :p

I beg you pardon.
Marantz on an open shelf gets hot as hell and triggers fail.
Salon's midrange fail because of a design issue known to Harmon.
Parasound center channel (hardly used infant mortality issue)
Repaired an Outlaw that I bought used (did I mention it was used ;))
ATI hum, but they sometimes do that. ;)

I hope so too, because the AVP is fantastic :D

- Rich
Click to expand...
Well, you've had the Salon for 10+ yr ? That's pretty good.

I've had the Denon AVR-5308CI for 5+ yr and AVP-A1 for 4+ yr.

The whole point of buying these expensive equipment is for quality that lasts. So hopefully it is true. :)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
PENG said:
Guess which one sounds better? Both measured roughly about 6" from tweeters and on axis.
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I'll guess black being the KEF's and answer KEF.
Are these the speakers w/o REQ?
If REQ is engaged on one, then I can't begin to guess.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
KEW said:
I'll guess black being the KEF's and answer KEF.
Are these the speakers w/o REQ?
If REQ is engaged on one, then I can't begin to guess.
Click to expand...
You guessed right, and both without Room EQ. I have no Room EQ capability in that room but I wish I do. The KEF's off axis does not change as much so from the listening position the two became more similar. I think this is a case where Room EQ could make the two sound more alike. I am still looking for an affordable two channel Room EQ solution. Emotiva has a $99 one that will only work with their XMC-1.
 

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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
What Mirage speakers do you have? I associate Mirage with omni-directional speakers.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
KEW said:
What Mirage speakers do you have? I associate Mirage with omni-directional speakers.
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Not the Omni, just some old speakers that look like M760 but there is no model number on the sticker. They sound amazing though, given that they were designed 25 years ago, if in fact they were M760.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
My thoughts are that all of the factors that make speakers good extend beyond a designers ability to really know what they will get before the design is complete. They can calculate a lot, but when it gets down to how factors like the dispersion, interactions between drivers, and cabinet will sound; there is no "sure thing".
The technology has gotten better over the years so the average quality of speakers has gone up, but an old design that happened to have some extra luck will certainly hold its own for a couple of decades!

That luck factor is often what distinguishes a "classic" from just another design. If Mirage had greater sales volume, they may have distinguished themselves with this speaker as Klipsch did with its CornWalls a couple of decades earlier!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
KEW said:
That luck factor is often what distinguishes a "classic" from just another design. If Mirage had greater sales volume, they may have distinguished themselves with this speaker as Klipsch did with its CornWalls a couple of decades earlier!
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I think you made a great valid point here!!
I would guess that the M760 would not have received any good review from those who swear by off axis performance. My experience so far is that off axis performance needs to be considered for sure, but is probably overrated. The fact is, speakers such as the B&W 800 series, and my cheap Mirage, could sound great in the typical 2 channel stereo listening position as long as you have the flexibility in adjusting the toe in angle and not in a difficult room (whatever that means:D). Everything else being equal then sure, I can understand the theoretical advantage of speakers that have good off axis performance but more often than not we are forced to accept trade offs.
 
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