Please help a newbie on sub choice

[ComingAlong]

I’ve been a lurker around here for a little bit now, and decided it was time to join up and start falling down the rabbit hole. I’m really just a newbie to anything beyond just the standard in home audio and visual. So if I ask some ridiculous questions, or sound like a complete moron, take it easy on me!
I’ve got two projects that I’d like to make some changes on in my place…..


Project #1 - is a dedicated home theater room. Room dimensions are, 15 ½ feet wide x 20 feet deep. And it’s two level seating. On the lower level the ceiling is 10 feet high and 9 feet on the upper level. So room volume is just under 3000 cu/ft . The carpet is very deep pile, the entire left wall is a double wall (there is a three foot deep closet running the entire 20 feet behind the left wall, not included in the 15 ½ foot width of the room), and the door into the room is a very heavy wood. Not sure how much that all matters, but it seems the room has good sound absorbing. And this room is used for 90% HT, 10% music. With a fair portion of the HT time being sporting events of different kinds, NFL/NBA/ a bit of UFC. With the rest being mainly blu ray movies.

Right now I’m wanting to just upgrade the sub. Currently running just a single Klipsch SW112. The front of the room is prewired for a dual sub. So whichever two subs I buy will be located in the front, just outside of the front mains. All speakers, except subs of course, are in wall.
So far, my limited knowledge has brought me to two choices for the subs. First on my list is dual HSU VTF3-MK4’s. Second right now is dual SVS PB12 Plus’s. The SVS’s are definitely going to cost a lot more, but if they were going to be a drastically better option than the HSU’s, I could probably swing them.
So my questions are, first, are these both pretty decent options? Second, will either option be enough to fill the room with good quality/even bass? I gather that neither one is what you’d call high end, but I’m just wanting to go mid-level, yet still decent, on the subs. And once they’re in I’ll leave the theater be for a little while.


Project #2 – Is a pool/game room just outside the theater room. Room is roughly 20’x40’. It’s not quite a perfect rectangle, it opens up slightly at the rear with a wet bar and access to other parts of the basement. But fairly close to rectangular, and 9’ ceiling.
This system will eventually become my passion I believe. Currently just a 2.1 system used for 90% music and 10% movies. Eventually I’d like a higher end 2.2 set up geared towards music. Right now it’s just an Onkyo TXNR 818, Klipsch RF 82 II’s, and the Klipsch SW112 will move out there from the theater room.

For right now I’m just looking for the theater room sub upgrade, and then hopefully in the near future begin my quest in the game room. So thanks for reading my probably too long of a post, and thanks in advance for any help and replies!

 

[rojo]

I think the Hsu and SVS subs are both fine subs. If you can drag your feet a little, I believe I read somewhere that Josh Ricci will be measuring the Reaction Audio BPS 212 soon. Reaction Audio I think knocks $100 off if you buy a pair ($900 for two IIRC) -- at least they did last time they were in stock. Maybe by the time Josh posts his results, they'll be on sale again. And depending on how they measure, they might be worth adding to your list of contenders as well.

What sort of bass management do you have in your Project #1 room?

 

[Steve81]

Hi there,

Definitely a couple of solid choices you've picked out. FWIW, the SVS PB12+ is closer to the Hsu VTF-15H, which has been reviewed / measured by AH's Josh Ricci:
Data-Bass
I think it's fair to say that a pair of either the Hsu VTF-15 (really even the VTF-3.4) or the SVS PB12+ would rock a 3000 cubic foot space.

I'd also point you in the direction of the Power Sound Audio XS30se, who's little brother the XS15se was also reviewed / measured:
Data-Bass

Being a sealed sub, the performance will be a bit different from the ported SVS & Hsu options. A port provides a significant boost in output around its tuning frequency, and serves to extend the system's response. However, above and below that point, the dual 15" drivers and 800W worth of amplification give the XS30se a useful advantage. One other little factoid: while a ported sub will roll off quickly below port tune, a sealed sub has a more gradual low end roll-off. In your room, that could translate into deep extension (think useful output down to 10Hz) with a pair of XS30's.

As a side note: both SVS and PSA offer free return shipping (not with all products in PSA's case, but that does cover the XS30se).

 

[ComingAlong]

Thank you rojo and Steve!

rojo, I'm using another Onkyo TXNR 818 in the theater room as well. If that's what you're meaning by bass management? And it's never been an issue for me dragging my feet, haha!

Steve, I looked up the PSA's and a pair of the XS30se's sure seems like they would fit the bill as well. In my untrained mind (ears as well!) I'm thinking that a sealed sub would sound a little tighter, maybe a little less muddy. Is that a correct assumption?

I'm embarrassed to say that up until just very recently that I've started to study these things, I would have only just assumed that the larger the driver = the deeper the tone, and the larger the amp = the more volume you could get at a given tone. But I know there's a lot more to it than just that.

 

[Steve81]

Steve, I looked up the PSA's and a pair of the XS30se's sure seems like they would fit the bill as well. In my untrained mind (ears as well!) I'm thinking that a sealed sub would sound a little tighter, maybe a little less muddy. Is that a correct assumption?

An over-generalization I'm afraid. I'd suggest glancing at this article for a start:
Sealed vs Ported Subwoofers: Which Is Right For You? | Audioholics

 

[ComingAlong]

Thank you for the link Steve. I believe I might be gaining some understanding of ported vs. sealed. If I'm understanding right (not to derail my own thread) on the low end roll off.....when a ported sub goes below the port tune, the driver has a possibility of free floating. I'm guessing that to being related to some sort of lack of backpressure, as in the driver is moving back and forth but not actually compressing any air? Seems almost like a cavitation or fibrilation? And sealed units have less potential for this?

I'm thinking that even with the slightly less output, compared to a comparable sized ported sub and with me only having the 3000 cu ft in the room, that two XS30se's would still have enough juice to fill the room nicely. Would you agree?

 

[ComingAlong]

Not that the difference I just asked about is the only one betweeen ported and sealed. Just one that I'm hoping to understand better.

 

[shadyJ]

Your understanding isn't quite correct, but close. When a woofer in a ported sub oscillates below the tuning point, it is true that it doesn't have much back pressure and is in danger of bottoming out if not controlled by some kind of limiter. It can still produce sound pressure waves, but these waves can also become negated by pressure waves from the port which cause cancellation. It's generally not a good idea to let ported subs produce much sound below the tuning point, but they can still produce some.

Would two XS30s be enough to pressurize a 3k cubic ft room, probably. But you will be depending on room gain for deep bass with sealed subs, and you can't really be sure how much you would get. Furthermore, you need a huge amount of deep bass for it to be sensed at all. I would go with ported subs. The new Reaction subs look like a bargain. I would be looking at a couple PV15Xs with 1kW amps. The Hsu VTF15hs and SVS PB12 Pluses look great too, but I would try to swing for a Rythmik FV15HP which has shown amazing performance for $1.5k. It beats the SVS PB13 Ultra in many respects.

 

[Steve81]

Thank you for the link Steve. I believe I might be gaining some understanding of ported vs. sealed. If I'm understanding right (not to derail my own thread) on the low end roll off.....when a ported sub goes below the port tune, the driver has a possibility of free floating. I'm guessing that to being related to some sort of lack of backpressure, as in the driver is moving back and forth but not actually compressing any air? Seems almost like a cavitation or fibrilation? And sealed units have less potential for this?

Below port tune, the driver is no longer loaded by the enclosure; think of it as just being in free air. In terms of physical strain on the driver, you could liken it to an infinite baffle alignment which is basically mounting a driver in a wall, with a massive airspace behind it. However, in the case of the free air driver / ported below tune, the back-waves generated by the rearward motion of the driver cancel out much of the output, leading to a 24dB/octave roll off vs 12dB/octave roll off for the IB.

I'm thinking that even with the slightly less output, compared to a comparable sized ported sub and with me only having the 3000 cu ft in the room, that two XS30se's would still have enough juice to fill the room nicely. Would you agree?

Indeed I would. While the room is always a variable as shadyJ mentions, a pair of XS30se's bring a heck of a lot of output any way you dice it. Of course, for some idea of what can be accomplished down low, a single XS15se managed to deliver better than 100dB at 10Hz in Josh Ricci's room at the main listening position. One can imagine what a pair of XS30s would have done under similar circumstances.

 

[Tom V.]

a pair of XS30se's bring a heck of a lot of output any way you dice it. Of course, for some idea of what can be accomplished down low, a single XS15se managed to deliver better than 100dB at 10Hz in Josh Ricci's room at the main listening position. One can imagine what a pair of XS30s would have done under similar circumstances.

I'd say 110dB would be a safe estimate. +4 for the 30 over the 15 and another 6 for the second 30. 20hz you might be around 115dB or so with say 120-130dB of headroom over most of the operating bandwidth(30hz to 100hz). With our free shipping promotion both ways there is really no risk to deciding for yourself..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[ComingAlong]

Thank you for the replies! As I begin to learn about this stuff I can feel myself already on the slippery slope of kissing the budget goodbye, and really going for broke on this stuff! I think that's going to be a constant battle for sure as I go along.

I think I'm starting to gravitate towards a pair of the PSA XS30se's. I think they'll give me what I'm looking for in the HT room. And the free shipping is obviously a nice bonus. I'm going to mull it over just a wee bit longer over the weekend, and should make my decision early next week.

 

[3db]

Take a look at Rythmik's servo controlled subs as well..

Rythmik Audio • 15" servo subwoofer F25

Specifications
Driver	Dual DS1501 15" high excursion with custom sensing coil
Driver materials	Black anodized aluminum with rubber surround
	Cast aluminum basket
	Copper flux modulation shorting rings
Amplifier	800WRMS patented servo controlled with Hypex modules
Dimensions	19"(W) x 33" (H )x 21"(D) - (23" D with grille and heatsink)
Shipping Weight	160 lbs (180lbs on a palette)
Frequency Response	14 - 200 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LFE inputs
	14 - 90 Hz (-2 dB @ 14 Hz) with LINE IN inputs
Crossover slope	Selectable 12 or 24 dB / octave
Crossover range (Low pass)	25 - 120 Hz (with LINE IN inputs)
Rumble Filter (High pass )	20 Hz 18 dB / octave
Phase response	90 degrees phase shift at 20 Hz
Phase adjustment	0 - 180 degrees continuously variable
Bass damping factor settings	high (Q=0.5), med (Q=0.7), and low (Q=1.1)
Finishes	Available black oak vinyl
Warranty	5 years warranty on driver and 2 years on electronics
	30 day satisfaction guarantee

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[Steve81]

Thank you for the replies! As I begin to learn about this stuff I can feel myself already on the slippery slope of kissing the budget goodbye, and really going for broke on this stuff! I think that's going to be a constant battle for sure as I go along.

Welcome to the club

 

[j_garcia]

I'd compromise some other aspects of the system, such as surrounds, for a better sub. That's one place you want to invest well, because you'll be investing twice if you don't anyway.

 

[ComingAlong]

HSU is now giving me some more to think about with the MK5 upgrade on the VTF-3. Decisions decisions......

 

[shadyJ]

HSU is now giving me some more to think about with the MK5 upgrade on the VTF-3. Decisions decisions......

That promises to be an awesome sub, but supposedly won't be available till late November from what I have heard.