Help needed with 2.1 system for music using current pm7200

[markw]

Well, one of us is lying.

Anyone is free to call Hsu Research themselves and ask them if they ship to England. 1-800 554 0150. I spoke to Leo

 

[alphawave]

OK, let's back up a space as I've tried to run before I can walk.

If using a sub via speaker-level and manually using the sub x-over, isn't there a problem in that (I assume) speaker don't drop off a cliff at x Hz? Rather, they will tail off gradually. So, with the best will in the world, aren't there going to be some frequencies which emit from both the speakers and the sub? Of course, the whole premise of my question is that this would be a bad thing (perhaps it isn't)?


EDIT: and just to complicate this further - as I'm using my PC as a source, is there such a thing as a DAC with bass management? I'm thinking if I have to add something new into the mix (other than a sub) the DAC might improve SQ whilst also doing away with (i) using the sub x-over and manually blending; and (ii) increasing the number of subs to choose from?

EDIT 2: just realized this is the first time I mentioned I'm playing from my PC - hope that hasn't caused any grief

 

[ski2xblack]

OK, let's back up a space as I've tried to run before I can walk.

If using a sub via speaker-level and manually using the sub x-over, isn't there a problem in that (I assume) speaker don't drop off a cliff at x Hz? Rather, they will tail off gradually. So, with the best will in the world, aren't there going to be some frequencies which emit from both the speakers and the sub? Of course, the whole premise of my question is that this would be a bad thing (perhaps it isn't)?

As Mark mentioned, it's not a huge problem until you become as OCD about sound as we have. And the situation is a bit more nuanced that steep slopes. I have a retro setup in one room that lacks bass management, the mains are sealed and roll off at 12db/oct, sub lp is also 12, and they blend very, very well. Ported mains roll off even steeper, but have a big phase shift in their lowest response range, making blending with a sub easier when they are high passed well above that point, in which case active filtering is the way to go. And it's certainly not the end of the world if you don't have that capability.

 

[markw]

It doesn't matter what source you're using.

And, you're right. The speaker fades off rather gradually towards the bottom. As I sad earlier, you've got kerfutz with the sub xover and level controls to find the right balance between the two. I'd start with the crossover around the -3 db point and go from there.

I may take few days playing different music to find what works best to your ears for all your music but nothing will be harmed.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, one of us is lying.

Anyone is free to call Hsu Research themselves and ask them if they ship to England. 1-800 554 0150. I spoke to Leo

I went on the HSU forum from an Internet search. Someone asked about International shipping and that was the answer.

I then tried to find a UK distributor for HSU and could not. May be there is but nothing comes up, which you would expect, as businesses like that generally make sure they can be found on the Internet.

 

[GIEGAR]

Circuit breaker!

OK, thanks both. My B&W speakers are stated to roll off at 33 Hz (-10db) with a gradual drop after 100 Hz according to this [I can't post links yet but google "B&W 602s3 roll off" and you get the link for soundandvision stats at the top]. Is this good or bad in terms of ease in manually trying to get a good cross-over?

By the way, what sub you would recommend? Budget is around £300 and I would like it to get as close as damn it to 20Hz.

£300 will get you close to 20Hz.

You have a great little British subwoofer company "just up the road" in Essex: B.K. Electronics.

Either of the XLS200 MK2's are around your budget at £315 and are spec'd to play -6dB @ 17Hz (or approx. -3dB @ 21Hz with 2nd order sealed roll-off). They have all the connections and adjustments you need and appear to be very well engineered.

Due to customer demand the new XLS200-DF MK2 now incorporates a filter bypass switch that allows the bass management of your AV Processor to manage the bass frequencies for home theatre work leaving the the XLS200's built in filtering to deal with the bass management on the High Level Input for Hi-Fi use.

It's not all puny subs and wide chasms and doom and gloom, eh mate?

 

[alphawave]

Nice one, thanks GIEGAR hadn't heard of BK before now. Looks just about perfect for me.

 

[GIEGAR]

Nice one, thanks GIEGAR hadn't heard of BK before now. Looks just about perfect for me.

No worries!

If/when you get it, please be sure to check back in and report your impressions.

Best of luck!

 

[alphawave]

OK, I'm pulling the trigger one way or another soon. Before I do:

1. BK XLS 200 MK2 vs (2nd hand) HSU VTF-1 MK2: any comments? The HSU would be around £150 - £200 or I will not buy it. As a reminder, this is for audio only not HT.

2. Assuming I go with the BK: FF or DF - is it simply down to whether I think my son will put his foot through it or is there more to it than that?

3. I came across the Parasound Halo P 5. It is £1000 and waaaaay more than I could spend without getting well and truly in trouble with my better half. But I notice it has a DAC and full bass management. I am imagining running the sub off this and the mains into the Marantz PM7200. In terms of analysis then:

(i) - my current soundcard is an X-Fi Titanium HD. The P 5 would need to blow this out of the water for the DAC to be a real benefit. Would it?

(ii) - people rave about my PM7200 and I must say I've always loved it (I've never heard another amp to compare it to though). Would the p 5 improve my SQ rather than using the PM7200 as both a pre and power amp?

If the answers to (i) and (ii) are "no" and "no" then I'm looking at paying £1000 for bass management - in which case I'll just do what I can to manually blend the sub.


This weeks' research has made my head explode but thanks for making it more manageable for me

 

[markw]

1) Either of these would solve your problem

2) I have no idea what you're asking here.

3) You do realize that if you go for this thing you will not be able to use your Marantz at all, don't you? You'll need to buy a power amp and retire your 7200.

The crux of the matter is that with your current system, your options are limited. Stick to # 1. Bass management is somewhat overrated in two channel systems anyway.

 

[alphawave]

2. Down firing or Front Firing?

3. No I didn't- I though I could run the pre into my marantz?

 

[markw]

2) That depends on your kid. I prefer front firing.

3) No, you really can't, unless you want to run the signal through two preamp stages. (Hint you don't)

 

[alphawave]

I see the idiocy of my ways now - was thinking I could somehow bypass the pre stage of the PM7200. Out of interest, what input am I missing on my marantz which would allow me to do that?

 

[markw]

You need a "main (or power amp) in", which goes hand-in-hand with a "preamp out".

If you had these, most of this discussion on what subs you could or could not use would have been obviated. You could have used any sub with right and left line-level inputs.

 

[alphawave]

OK man, thanks. And thanks for saving me from £1000 plus the divorce bill. Getting a Front Firing BK XLS200 MK2 (front firing). Looking forward to feeling some bass but hope I don't hit the brown note (the funniest part fo my research this week). Will be back on here to let you know how it goes.

 

[markw]

Kewl. Take your time finding that "sweet spot" for the crossover and level control. Be patient. It took me days and, even then, made an occasional tweak for a few weeks after that. I haven't had to touch it since then.

It's part of the fun of this hobby.

 

[markw]

Oh, one last thing:

I found this quite useful in getting a starting point for that elusive crossover/level point by ear, particularly tracks 21 - 31, although, realisticaly, I wouldn't expect too much from that last track.

 

[alphawave]

What would happen if I connected the P 5 to the processor input?

 

[markw]

???

Do you mean what would happen if you connected your computers digitial audio output to the P5 DAC input?

Dunno. It should work but your Marantz would again be out of the picture and you would need a power amp..

 

[alphawave]

OK, last question (honest!). Earlier in this thread GIGEAR said:


Hi Alpha. You don't need to ditch the Marantz UK | PM7200.

For an economical, simple solution, what I recommend you do is get one of the "slim line" 5 channel Marantz AVR's. The current model is the Marantz UK | NR1504, but older models will also be fine. In addition to a subwoofer preout jack, these have L & R main channel preout jacks (AKA 2.1 preouts). With the smaller Marantz AVR, you’re not paying for amplification you don’t need and the form/finish is a fairly good match for the PM7200.

Hook up the sources you want to utilise the sub for (I presume all) to the AVR and let it do the signal processing and (digital) bass management. The AVR’s L & R main preouts then feed your PM7200 for amplification and the new powered sub is fed directly by the AVR's sub preout. The AVR effectively becomes the processor/preamp and the PM7200 is effectively re-purposed as a power amp.

As well as bass management, you will also benefit from the AVR's very good Audyssey MultEQ auto setup and EQ routine and the associated Dynamic EQ. Audyssey will accurately measure and set up your speaker distances (delays) and levels, suggest crossover frequencies and determine EQ filters for each channel. Of course, you can “opt out” of Audyssey’s EQ and processing at various tiers or disable it altogether if you choose.

Good luck and let us know if you have any questions.


How is it I can connect the NR1504 to my PM7200, but not connect a Halo P 5 to my PM7200?