New to vinyl

[JohnnieB]

So I am starting to look into turntables. I currently have no albums, but my mom has a large collection that I hope to have at some point. Not too soon I hope. (love you mom)

I would like a better than average turntable and have a few questions, as I know nothing about them.

What price point am I looking at to get into quality turntables?

What are some features I should be looking for?

I am only starting to look and want to get a jump on it so I have time to keep my eyes out for deals that may come along.

Last consideration, my Sherbourn PT7030 does not have a phono pre input. Will I be able to run the table into an unbalanced input (rca)?

 

[ImcLoud]

I think you will need a Preamp, but they are cheap...
http://www.amazon.com/Rolls-VP29-Phono-preamplifier/dp/B0002BG2R2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1410964231&sr=8-2&keywords=preamp+rolls

For a table it depends what you want, an auto, an audiophile type, what is your budget..

The 2 I use now were around $500 each a project rm1.3 and a music hall 2.2le, they both sound good and work well the music hall has a project arm and tracker cartridge where the project has a sumiko pearl cart.. They sound very similar, I don't have the original cart in either of mine any more...

If I were doing it over I would just buy Uturns and be done with it, I played with a few and they work awesome.... U-Turn Audio no red yet, but they are supposed to have it soon per a conversation I had with them a while back...

If you want an all business table then I would go with the at lp60 for under $100 you can not find a better unit...

good luck

 

[3db]

+1 on what IMCLOUD suggested as far as pre-amps go.

Both PENG and I use ProJect Xpression III which seems to have been replaced by the Debut Esprit series. The Debut series have moved up market from the days of their introduction and look more like the Xpression series. I love their carbon fiber tone arms.... very good quality.


Pro-Ject Audio Systems

Correction..... The Xpression tables are under the classic line and not replaced by teh Debut series as I had orginally thought. My bad.

http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?list=classicline&cat=turntables&lang=en


http://www.project-audio.com/inhalt/en/pdf/1xpressioncarbon.pdf

 

[ImcLoud]

+1 on what IMCLOUD suggested as far as pre-amps go.

Both PENG and I use ProJect Xpression III which seems to have been replaced by the Debut Esprit series. The Debut series have moved up market from the days of their introduction and look more like the Xpression series. I love their carbon fiber tone arms.... very good quality.


Pro-Ject Audio Systems

The project arms are very nice for the money... It just depends on the budget, it can get expensive pretty fast even when going cheap... For example a uturn table, a music hall decoupler mat, a preamp, and a pair of cables to go from the preamp to the amp, and you are around $300 fast...

The projects that music direct has on sale is also a nice unit too, they have deput 3's for $325, and essential for $270 PRO-JECT ESSENTIAL TURNTABLE at Music Direct But I think this is the best deal $275 PRO-JECT DEBUT III TURNTABLE (PIANO BLACK) **DEMO** at Music Direct if you want gloss black...

 

[3db]

The project arms are very nice for the money... It just depends on the budget, it can get expensive pretty fast even when going cheap... For example a uturn table, a music hall decoupler mat, a preamp, and a pair of cables to go from the preamp to the amp, and you are around $300 fast...

The projects that music direct has on sale is also a nice unit too, they have deput 3's for $325, and essential for $270 PRO-JECT ESSENTIAL TURNTABLE at Music Direct But I think this is the best deal $275 PRO-JECT DEBUT III TURNTABLE (PIANO BLACK) **DEMO** at Music Direct if you want gloss black...

Turntables like speakers generally improve notably in quality and sound as one moves up the price ladder.

 

[slipperybidness]

Turntables like speakers generally improve notably in quality and sound as one moves up the price ladder.

There's a few items on the Pro-Ject Carbon that I should point out that really just "don't do it for me".

1) I don't like their "anti-skate" mechanism. It's just a little weight hanging by fishing line. For these prices, I think they could and should do better.

2) The speed is controlled by a wall wart and seems to be controlled by the AC mains frequency. This would be a poor/cheap design decision. They do offer an aftermarket speedbox to correct this shortcoming (and I am seriously considering building a DIY speed controller to solve this problem).

3) The stock mat that comes with this TT is pure junk. Toss it and get a real mat.

Now, the fit and finish of the Pro-Ject Carbon is top-notch. Wow, it really is a pretty TT, I have a pic of the needle sitting on a stylus balance as the wallpaper on my phone Carbon fiber tone arm at these prices is nice! And, an Ortofon Red is ~$100 cart, so that is awesome too!

It's not a fair comparison in the slightest........but my Technics SL 1210 puts the Pro-Ject to shame (and cost about 3x what the Pro-Ject did).

 

[3db]

There's a few items on the Pro-Ject Carbon that I should point out that really just "don't do it for me".

1) I don't like their "anti-skate" mechanism. It's just a little weight hanging by fishing line. For these prices, I think they could and should do better.

2) The speed is controlled by a wall wart and seems to be controlled by the AC mains frequency. This would be a poor/cheap design decision. They do offer an aftermarket speedbox to correct this shortcoming (and I am seriously considering building a DIY speed controller to solve this problem).

3) The stock mat that comes with this TT is pure junk. Toss it and get a real mat.

Now, the fit and finish of the Pro-Ject Carbon is top-notch. Wow, it really is a pretty TT, I have a pic of the needle sitting on a stylus balance as the wallpaper on my phone Carbon fiber tone arm at these prices is nice! And, an Ortofon Red is ~$100 cart, so that is awesome too!

It's not a fair comparison in the slightest........but my Technics SL 1210 puts the Pro-Ject to shame (and cost about 3x what the Pro-Ject did).

Comparing an entry level to the Technics is hardly fair like you say ... but the tonearms are miles ahead of what the Technics has.

Antiskate is antiskate and if it works effectively, it doesn't matter how its employed. I'm also of the opinion (I have lots of those ) as long as the speed mangement remains below levels of audible detection, then the argument is similar to THD in amps...

 

[slipperybidness]

Comparing an entry level to the Technics is hardly fair like you say ... but the tonearms are miles ahead of what the Technics has.

Antiskate is antiskate and if it works effectively, it doesn't matter how its employed. I'm also of the opinion (I have lots of those ) as long as the speed mangement remains below levels of audible detection, then the argument is similar to THD in amps...

Yeah, the Carbon is probably a better tonearm than the stock 1200 has, I'll give you that. Maybe I should take the carbon off the Pro-Ject and install it on the 1210

I will also concede on the anti-skate comment. But, that doesn't mean that I like the visual look of the Pro-Ject approach. I much-prefer the 1210 with the anti-skate setting that you dial in.

Now, the speed control is a different story. I have read several (subjective) reviews where the reviewer says "a very noticeable improvement" when going to the speedbox. I will also give these reviews a little bit of credibility because they said that moving up to the Acrl-It platter didn't improve the sound at all (but did allow for using it without a mat).

I have absolutely no doubts that the specs will measure better with the speedbox than with the wall wart. Like I said before, that was obviously a design decision to hit a specific price point, and not an engineering/performance decision.

Personally, if I had realized how they did the anti-skate, and realized the wall-wart approach, then I probably would have gone with a different TT. But, I will also concede that to get "what I really wanted" would have been at least a couple hundred dollars more than the Carbon. In the end, I'll probably keep this fine-looking turntable and either add a speedbox or build a DIY speed controller. I am needing a class project this semester, so that may be a great choice to fulfill that requirement and have a TT upgrade to boot.

I think that for the $, the carbon is a good TT. But, I think it is probably worth spending more. Or, if you don't have more $ at the time, then the Carbon is a great place to start and there is a clear upgrade path on where to spend the next couple hundred bucks.

 

[3db]

Now, the speed control is a different story. I have read several (subjective) reviews where the reviewer says "a very noticeable improvement" when going to the speedbox. I will also give these reviews a little bit of credibility because they said that moving up to the Acrl-It platter didn't improve the sound at all (but did allow for using it without a mat).

I have absolutely no doubts that the specs will measure better with the speedbox than with the wall wart. Like I said before, that was obviously a design decision to hit a specific price point, and not an engineering/performance decision.

I used to have an XpressionII before a basement flood ruined it and the insurance paid for an Xpression III. The II came with a heavy metal platter with a cheap felt mat. I hated that mat as well. However, the platter being heavy as it was was responsible for part of the speed stability...rotational mass and one of Newton's laws about bodies remaining in motion" . IHO, moving up to the lighter acrylic platter may have worsened the speed stability to the point of being audible. The III's motor was designed with the acrylic platter in mind... so some compensation from either the motor or walwart would have been employed. The III has better stability and less wow and flutter than the II but not by that much.

 

[slipperybidness]

I used to have an XpressionII before a basement flood ruined it and the insurance paid for an Xpression III. The II came with a heavy metal platter with a cheap felt mat. I hated that mat as well. However, the platter being heavy as it was was responsible for part of the speed stability...rotational mass and one of Newton's laws about bodies remaining in motion" . IHO, moving up to the lighter acrylic platter may have worsened the speed stability to the point of being audible. The III's motor was designed with the acrylic platter in mind... so some compensation from either the motor or walwart would have been employed. The III has better stability and less wow and flutter than the II but not by that much.

Ok, fair enough. I will admit that I was purely considering the electrical side and not putting too much into the mechanical inertia of a massive platter. But, that doesn't change my bias against the wall wart.

 

[ImcLoud]

I kind of like how the anti skate looks, the little string and weight floating there is "different"... I don't know, kind of like having your entire system floating on pin tips, lol...

I checked the speeds in my turntables {I have a bunch of tachometers from work} and they are all correct, I have never heard them slow or not sound right..
The Music hall table isn't bad either, but you can pick it apart, the motor mount is an elastic band, the rca connects are hard connected inside the unit, and why are colors so much more expensive than black, but thats about it...

My 1.3 is another good table, and I will be honest I bought it on looks alone, I dont know why buy I like how it looks...

I have to admit I buy tables for their looks, as far as sound they all do good enough, I mean its vinyl... I see a table that project was going to make but never did the it was just a thick round platter, the motor was under it and it was just round, the power for the motor came up the center of the album and the tone arm lowered onto the center pin, the power and interconnect connected directly to the tone arm, it was really nice looking, but they never produced it...

 

[JohnnieB]

Thanks for replies so far.

Not sure what the difference is between auto, audiophile type. I think some features I would like would be auto speed adjust. I don't really want to mess with switching a drive belt for different speeds. I can place the tone arm myself but auto would be nice. The ability to customize. Lastly, audio purity is very important.

As far as budget goes, somewhere between $500-$1000 for a play ready setup.

 

[wlmmn]

I'm 30 and into recently got into vinyl a little over a year ago. Here's been my experience:

1. Got a Project Debut Carbon turntable with a Project Phono Box S, started buying some records at the local record shops around here in Denver.

2. Started playing the records, liked the extra dynamics the vinyl masterings of the 70s and 80s had over the equivalent CDs but remembered just now noisy those pops and clicks can be.

3. Bought a Spin-Clean record cleaning machine, reduced the pops and clicks immensely and could hear more detail, soundstage and dynamics the records had over the digital files I had been listening to.

4. Quickly realized just how rare and expensive records of the type of music I like are (heavy metal) and spent a lot of money on original UK pressings of Iron Maiden and Judas Priest records, as well as original Metallica and AC/DC. Some of the records looked pristine out of the Amazon mailing box but had a lot of pops and clicks cleaning just couldn't get out.

5. Then spent some money upgrading the walwart power supply with the Speedbox Pro, upgraded the platter and changed the cartridge to an Ortofon 2MBlue. Sound got better but $$$ started adding up.

The takeaway: IF you have a decent turntable that's level, with a darn good cartridge that's level and aligned properly, AND a separate phono preamp AND your records are in very good condition and clean and you got a chance to listen to them before you bought them, AND you have a revealing enough sound system, then yes your records will sound noticeably better than the equivalent CD mastering. Of course, this is provided the mastering that was put on the vinyl was indeed better than the digital mastering done back in the day. With my collection that is very true with my Van Halen records, but not so much with my 180 gram reissue of the Boston debut album (I have an original Epic records pressing with "WLY" in the deadwax that sounds much better), or my original Metallica Master of Puppets vinyl, which just sounds like a noisier version of the CD. It's fun but it's an audio hobby in and out itself, and there's a little bit of "chasing the dragon" with turntable upgrades......where do you stop?

 

[ImcLoud]

I don't know if I would go crazy upgrading a project table past double its original cost...

If your budget is around $1000 maybe call MD and see if they will do better on this music hall 7.1 , make no mistake this table is beautiful and for $1100-ish {I would offer them $1050} it comes with a $550 Mojo cartridge!!! The only down side is switching to 45's still needs to be done by hand, its not a big deal, but it is what it is, most audiophile machines are not going to have an rpm switch... MUSIC HALL MMF-7.1 TURNTABLE (WITH MOJO CARTRIDGE) **DEMO** at Music Direct The pictures don't do that table justice, that has the double plinthe, its layered and has cone feet, its bad ass, you can not tell in the picture but even the carbon tone arm is piano black....

A friend of mine just sold a Mitchell Gyro Se with a RB300 tone arm for $2000, it was used and needed a cartridge but perfect and a MK2!!!! Just the table was $3000 or so...

 

[JohnnieB]

ImcLoud: this looks like an awesome table. I even like the color. Most of my moms vinyl collection is 33 and thats probably mostly what I will buy. For what little I have learned already, the carbon tone arm, double plinth with isolated motor, acrylic platter, mojo stylus all bundled ready to go looks like a good deal.

Add in the pre amp and some cabling id be at about 1300, correct?

 

[ImcLoud]

ImcLoud: this looks like an awesome table. I even like the color. Most of my moms vinyl collection is 33 and thats probably mostly what I will buy. For what little I have learned already, the carbon tone arm, double plinth with isolated motor, acrylic platter, mojo stylus all bundled ready to go looks like a good deal.

Add in the pre amp and some cabling id be at about 1300, correct?

Correct, and to be honest if I was looking for a new table, that one would be sold already!!! A friend of mine swears by the mojo cartridge, he says its better than $10K units!!! I guess that is what some guys consider the staple at that price range? I can tell you he has a rega table with a different brand tone arm and that mojo cart and his albums sound fantastic...

I would also consider buying a music hall mat Amazon.com: Music Hall MAT Decoupling Cork Turntable Platter Mat: Musical Instruments I will be the first person to say "that cable dont make a lick of difference" or " that $1000 cd player sounds just like this $200 one" so I am not easily sold on stuff that costs more or you add to systems, BUT that platter mat from music hall, makes a difference, I promise you its worth every penny of $50, you can buy them on ebay a little cheaper, but for the most part they are $50, but, get one, and you will love it...

Call music direct, I am not sure if they will move on the price, just say "hey I noticed this table on your sight, I am a buyer at $1050 can you ask your manager if that is possible?" they say one of three things, 1 "No", 2 "we cant do $1050 but we will do $Xamount", or 3, "yes".... I have dealt with them a lot, I have spent THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of dollars with them, but I got a lot for my money...

Anyway that one gets my vote, I also like the thorens 209 and 309 and I think hideflifestyle.com had 1 of each for a discount, but to be honest its a $1500 {the 209, the 309 is $2K} table that has an electronic rpm switch which is cool, but comes with a $39 at cartridge, I mean why put on on there at all? I know the at 95b is worth well over $40 BUT its a $1500 table!!! I don't know, I actually almost bought a td209 until I heard the music hall for 1/3rd the price...

good luck, buying stuff is fun, enjoy it, get on the phone, maybe drive to a couple shops and do some listening, I love my systems but can not wait until something else grabs me and I get to buy it, I am addicted...

 

[JohnnieB]

As far as the preamp goes. I see the Rolls has an automatic eq? What does this do exactly? Is it really a desired affect? In addition I was looking at a Jolida tube pre. It caught my eye because I feel astetically it would look nice in my audio cabinet with rest of my gear. Dont know if its worth spending that kind of money tho. Any thoughts on this?

 

[ImcLoud]

I think the rolls pre works well, I have a Bellari which I like a lot, you can get them used on ebay and audiogon for under $200 the vp129 and vp130 are both about the same and I have 1 of each, I cant say they do anything different, except the power supply is a little different...
Bellari VP130 Like new | Phono | Peoria, Arizona 85382 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community


I was just online chatting with a friend of mine that has the 7.1 / non mojo, and I showed him the demo sale for $1150, he said it comes with the $50 music hall mat, so between the mat $50, the 9c tone arm $500, and the Ortofon Mojo cart $500, you get the rest of the table practically for free with that demo sale at Musicdirect!!!!

 

[3db]

I'm not sure if this is in your price range..
Pro-Ject 6PerspeX

Pro-Ject PerspeX Turntable

 

[JohnnieB]

3db: Looks like a very nice table. But were getting into a slightly larger budget. I have to set a limit and stick fairly close to it, or I will put myself in the poor house. Then I'd have to sell all my audio gear, just to pay the bills. I'm already going 300 over my $1000 limit with previous suggestions. It's like being a kid in a candy store.