How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

[herbu]

If you were in the market for a pair of speakers in the $10k-15k/pair range, what would be your process to choose which ones? I don't want this thread to debate this one is better than that one, or this one for $1k is as good.

Most people agree speakers sound different in different rooms. So listening to various brands in various rooms may not be the final word, (even if you can find a person/dealer in your area with the speakers you want to hear).

Many speakers in this range are only built after you order. Their return policies may range from none to 4 weeks, and their delivery times will vary. So even if you could order 2 or more brands to audition in your home, it would be difficult to coordinate delivery. Plus you'd have to pay for all of them at the same time. Plus you'd need space and equipment in your living room to set up an accurate blind listening audition.

So you can't accurately compare speakers in your home before you buy, and in many cases can't hear the speakers anywhere before you buy. (In fact, it's not even possible to hear most $2-3k speakers around here.) So how would you choose?

 

[Lulimet]

Simple. I will never spend $15k on a pair of speakers.

 

[ImcLoud]

Well here's the thing and my thoughts on your questions topic...

If you are in the market for $10-15K in speaker, you already have an idea of what you like, not many guys just jump in at that price point, they ussually have a history of listening with some experience under their belt, if they don't they most likely wont notice the differences between a $2700 speaker and a $50K speaker so just pick the one you like the looks of best...

For me there are a few speakers that I initially heard {A lot of the times in a seedy motel room or hotel lobby, lol, if you have ever been to a audio show you know what I mean}, that stopped me in my tracks, now at these rooms they are mostly empty, a few brochures, the designer or rep, maybe a line of folding chairs, and the equipment, so its tough to get a perfect idea of what they sound like, BUT some will show you a sound that you never heard before, that is special...

I personally see no reason to spend that much, I think one of the best speakers I ever heard was the sound scape 8's {something that stands alone with no sub, seems to be alive and actually felt like the sound followed you around, they are under 10K unless you get crazy with the finish, but to my ears for 2.0 listening you will not find a better speaker, I have heard speakers well over 50K and the sound scapes are all over where you think you should be...

But even at that, when you compare them to other capable towers, or something like a pair of Sierra 2's with a pair of svs2000's and depending on your listening preferences you may like that $3000 setup much better than a set of towers costing 3 times as much... I always say just because you want to spend X amount doesn't mean you have to, especially when W amount gets you the same or in some cases more..

 

[Steve81]

So how would you choose?

I don't know that I would. With five figures to spend, I'd be more inclined to commission a custom build based around my needs, tastes, and room.

 

[c2k]

Pick the one that is designed to work off axis as well as the ability to reproduce accurately at good volumes.

Here's a list in no particular order for custom builders and users of higher performance drivers:

Ascent Acoustics
Philharmonic Audio
Salk
Selah Audio
Funk Audio

I might be a bit biased since I'm getting something built by Funk and know about the drivers capabilities used by other manufacturers.

But here it goes...on Why I picked Funk Audio over the other manufacturers.

1. The guy builds his own drivers
2. Performance equal to or greater than Raal tweeters
3. High efficiency
4. Integration without needing expensive active crossovers and powerful DSPs required for my line array.
5. I get videos, it's like watching how it's make for your own stuff
6. Cabinets are beautiful
7. Very good communication. I do call him and annoy him, but was always at a professional level
8. Some designs that are simply not available.
9. Comes up with new drivers every once and awhile. R&D that is not held back by Marketing
10. Their site is active with updates on what they are working on.

If I had 10K

I would by a 8.2P Demo and a 18.0SE, would cost you 4850 + 2850 = 7700(Includes shipping to NA)

You would get plenty of dynamics and a tweeter that can keep up with the mains. I would consider this a perfect example of a beautifully integrated MTM.
The reason why I recommend the demo? I saw them a month ago, and in great condition along with 10 other people at the AVS GTG in Vancouver this year. Like new.

You would get seriously accurate output & accuracy that out does LMS Ultra that is noted by Docks, another forum member that owns both versions built by Nathan with pictures. See the below link:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/80892-review-side-side-lms5400-vs-tsad18.html

With this you achieve performance levels you would compete against many systems well above what you paid for. The way it responds and present you with the performance is very different from what you get from B&W(800 series+) if you have heard that one. Music that is full of life and draws you in. Highly dynamic, distortion is non-existent.

If I'm not recommending those Funk Audios, Give Selah Audio a shot with their scanspeak and raal combinations. Or his tempestas which is an accuton build with crossovers well below their ringing point. They are properly crossed over and seems like a nice design as well. Integration with seas drivers are also possible with the raal tweeter. Seas are good drivers are recommend them and has been know for their accuracy. But personally with their large line along with accuton and their high price, I haven't listened to their entire line up. They are, however, drivers designed right.

Philharmonic Speakers are larger and may not be appealing to everyone, but is also a builder that place charts and information that is useful. Also uses Raal tweeter that are crossed with the BG Neos below their problematic areas.

Salk also offers a few appealing line ups with nice looks, but just didn't seem interesting to me. Their MTMs and Higher line is nice but the pricing...

If your place is smaller and not much is required even the Funk Audio 6.1P maybe able to do it. At 2200 and that sub you save a lot for maybe a vacation a car or lots of beer popcorn and possibly some extra blurays to watch you movies.

I really hope this helps you on your adventure. I've been though this long road already...You can see the story on the below link.

The Official Funk Audio Thread - AVS Forum

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, first define your needs. If your needs are more specific, you could rule out a few speakers.

Room size & shape.

How flexible is your wife regarding speakers and subs?

Do you want speakers + subs or no subs?

Can the speakers be 200lbs each or just 70lbs?

Are you willing to wait 2 months, 3 months, 6 months after you order the speakers?

What speakers have you listened to? Front radiating, dipole/bipolar/Omni-pole, line array, truncated line array, etc.

 

[GranteedEV]

You read one review on 6moons, pull out the credit card, and you're set.

 

[Swerd]

If you were in the market for a pair of speakers in the $10k-15k/pair range, what would be your process to choose which ones? I don't want this thread to debate this one is better than that one, or this one for $1k is as good.

For those prices, you should make an effort to listen to what you can find. You are limited to local (or distant) dealers, annual audio shows, or local owners. Often, the Internet Direct (ID) speaker makers can help you find local owners who are willing to demo their speakers. Where are you located?

Remember that speakers sold through local dealers usually involve a dealer's mark up of at least 100% over the cost from the distributor. With ID speaker makers, you save this cost. Therefore, be careful how you define your price range. Speakers selling at $10-15k/pair through a dealer may not be the same quality range as speakers sold at the same price through ID.

Remember to include shipping in the total cost of speakers. If purchasing from a dealer, the shipping costs are already included in the price. With ID, you have to inquire, but this isn't difficult.

Most people agree speakers sound different in different rooms. So listening to various brands in various rooms may not be the final word, (even if you can find a person/dealer in your area with the speakers you want to hear).

I agree, but there are some qualifiers to the general idea that "different speakers sound different in different rooms" that should help you.

The sound range that varies the most is the bass, from roughly 250 Hz and lower. Even the same speaker can sound different in this range after moving it, or your listening position, within the same room. Above that frequency range, changing locations of speakers or listener makes much less of a difference. So you can easily get a good impression of a speakers mid range and treble qualities regardless of where you are. But you cannot fairly evaluate bass qualities or the relative balance between bass and mid range unless you are in the same room and in the same locations. This is due to the physics of acoustics, and does not vary significantly between different brands of speakers.

I know of at least two speaker makers (Philharmonic and Salk) who make all their speakers share a common sound quality across the all important mid range. This is true of all their various models. For higher cost, you get deeper bass and sometimes, crisper sounding detail in the mid range and higher, without altering the overall tonal balance. But you can be assured that what you hear in a smaller bookshelf speaker will be representative of the entire line of speakers they sell.

If you want to hear this mid range sound quality, and you cannot find any other way to hear them, they will ship a pair of their bookshelf speakers for you to demo in your home.

I'm not certain about Ascend Acoustics, but I believe the same might also be true of their Sierra line of speakers.

Many speakers in this range are only built after you order. Their return policies may range from none to 4 weeks, and their delivery times will vary. So even if you could order 2 or more brands to audition in your home, it would be difficult to coordinate delivery. Plus you'd have to pay for all of them at the same time. Plus you'd need space and equipment in your living room to set up an accurate blind listening audition.

Some people have actually done this, but it isn't for everyone. But I hope my comments above about a common mid range sound quality in a speaker maker's line of products, plus the room location variation of mainly the frequencies below roughly 250 Hz, indicate a somewhat simpler way around your dilemma.

I urge you to call or email Salk, Philharmonic, and Ascend Acoustics and discuss your desires with them. They do this on a regular basis, and I believe they do a better job at this than any local dealer I've met.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Remember that speakers sold through local dealers usually involve a dealer's mark up of at least 100% over the cost from the distributor. With ID speaker makers, you save this cost. Therefore, be careful how you define your price range. Speakers selling at $10-15k/pair through a dealer may not be the same quality range as speakers sold at the same price through ID.

That's another can of worms right there.

All kinds of scenarios. What if he could get 40% discount from the dealer? What if the dealer has a demo that looks brand new for 60% off?

Is a $2K aftermarket diamond tweeter better quality than a $500 B&W in-house diamond tweeter? Mass production, economy of scales, etc.

ID companies will charge up to $2K+ for a piano high-gloss finish, while some B&M brands do not. For example, some B&W & KEF speakers cost the same whether you get piano high-gloss or standard finishes.

Can of worms I say.

 

[Swerd]

Remember that speakers sold through local dealers usually involve a dealer's mark up of at least 100% over the cost from the distributor. With ID speaker makers, you save this cost. Therefore, be careful how you define your price range. Speakers selling at $10-15k/pair through a dealer may not be the same quality range as speakers sold at the same price through ID.

As an example of this price difference, compare the Salk HT2-TL or the Salk Veracity ST to the Joseph Audio Perspective. The Salks are sold ID and costs $4500 or $4200 per pair. Custom finishes are available at higher cost. The Joseph Audio sells through dealers and costs (the last I knew) about $12,000 per pair. I've heard all these, and consider them as very close in sound quality.

Note that Joseph Perspectives and the Salk Veracity ST, contain identical mid woofers. The somewhat larger Salk HT2-TL has larger mid woofers and can go deeper with greater volume.

 

[Swerd]

Here's another comparison of ID vs. Dealer that may be more in your price range. Again, I've heard all three of these and believe they are all among the best I've heard at any price.

Salk SoundScape 8 Prices from $8,000 per pair

Philharmonic Audio 3 Prices from $3,500 per pair

Joseph Audio Pearl Prices from $24,000 per pair (as of 2 years ago)

 

[Irvrobinson]

For those prices, you should make an effort to listen to what you can find.

This is my sentiment exactly.

Herbu, you'll get the best results by being willing to travel. I don't like buying electronics I can't touch and hear, and for high-end speakers it is an absolute requirement, IMO. Oftentimes plane tickets to a city with multiple high-end dealers are only a few hundred dollars, purchased in advance, and that's a small factor in a $15K purchase. Product reviews by a trusted source can help you narrow the field, but I think listening in a well set-up room tells you more than any review will.

For example, Peter Aczel had been singing the praises of the Linkwitz Orion when I was in the market, saying they were better than any other speaker he knew of, and Aczel generally had quite a bit of credibility with me. Nonetheless, I wasn't willing to order a set without listening first. As ADTG found out, the resale market for these speakers is very small, and certainly was back then, so I had to be sure. Through a friend I found an owner in a city I was traveling to on business, and he was very gracious; we listened for over two hours, with music I brought with me. This Orion owner had an awesome set-up in a room similar to mine. And lucky it was that I listened, because the Orions did not sound as good to my ears as the Revel Salon2 or the KEF 207/2, which I was comparing them to. Had I purchased the Orions and later heard the Salon2s (or the 207/2 for that matter) I would have been very unhappy.

I heard the 207/2, and a couple of highly regarded Wilsons, and the second generation of the B&W 800Ds, in Seattle. I also drove a ways from Seattle to the dealer I ultimately ordered the Salon2s from, and it was those listening sessions that sealed the deal. I realize I'm talking about speakers in the $20K price range, but the economic case is similar. Auditions also give you the best insight into build quality, ergonomics (how cables are connected, for example, and the quality of the controls and connectors). Without seeing them in person few people might guess how much higher quality the cabinetry of the B&W 800D is than any other speaker I've listed here.

You just can't depend on reviews. While Gene also carries a lot of weight with me, there's no way I would order a pair of his prized Status 8Ts without one or more listening sessions. And I'm sure he would think I was being silly if I did order without listening first.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...As ADTG found out, the resale market for these [Linkwitz Orion] speakers is very small...

Yeah, my Orion have been on eBay & Craigslist for about 3 months now and not a single offer!

I had no trouble at all selling my 1 pair of Revel Salon2, 1 pair of B&W 802D2, and three pairs KEF 201/2!

Resale is terrible when you buy new speakers or any speaker @ full price (ID or B&M).

 

[GranteedEV]

Yeah, my Orion have been on eBay & Craigslist for about 3 months now and not a single offer!

I had no trouble at all selling my 1 pair of Revel Salon2, 1 pair of B&W 802D2, and three pairs KEF 201/2!

Resale is terrible when you buy new speakers or any speaker @ full price (ID or B&M).

I'll give you fifty bucks for each.

 

[ImcLoud]

I'll give you fifty bucks for each.

I'll double that you pay shipping..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'll give you fifty bucks for each.

I'll double that you pay shipping..

Wise guy...............

No, really, the Linkwitz Orion will be "the last speaker I will ever own"........because I will never be able to sell them. Ever.

 

[ImcLoud]

Wise guy...............

No, really, the Linkwitz Orion will be "the last speaker I will ever own"........because I will never be able to sell them. Ever.

what you just got 2 good offers? Never say never, fine Ill pay shipping.. how far off are we?

Thats why I am so cheap, I never spend more than a couple thousand on a system and that is start to finish, furniture, cables, speakers, amps, ect... When I sell them sometimes I get more than I paid back...
I was offered $3000 for my CSB1 system I paid less than that... Now granted if you wanted csb1's they are $900, a pair of outlaws cost almost $700, parasound 2100 almost $700, rm turntable with cartridge almost 600, dac, mini dsp, and stands and then a pair of subs it would be hard to replicate for me so I wouldn't sell it , PLUS I love the csb1's...

 

[walter duque]

I sold off all my old speakers and subs a few month back. Most of them where 10 years+ old. I sold 1 pair at cost and the rest I actually made a small profit on. Reason is simple: I get them direct from the builder at below dealer cost. That's one reason I stick to my brand, besides that they are quality build (not chinese made cabinets) I like they way they sound. Makes me happy all around. Even the ones I have now I had an offer on them for 3x of what they cost me.

 

[ImcLoud]

I sold off all my old speakers and subs a few month back. Most of them where 10 years+ old. I sold 1 pair at cost and the rest I actually made a small profit on. Reason is simple: I get them direct from the builder at below dealer cost. That's one reason I stick to my brand, besides that they are quality build (not chinese made cabinets) I like they way they sound. Makes me happy all around. Even the ones I have now I had an offer on them for 3x of what they cost me.

Nice, I am not that good, lol.. If I listen to them until I find something I like better and get 90% of my investment back I will be happy...

 

[zieglj01]

If you were in the market for a pair of speakers in the $10k-15k/pair range, what would be your process to choose which ones? I don't want this thread to debate this one is better than that one, or this one for $1k is as good.

From reading some of you other threads, I do not believe you will be happy - till you spend that $15k

So budget 3 to 5k for transportation - then spend 10K for your speakers.

If you do not want to budget that transportation - then order some bookshelf speakers to
test some sonic sound signatures - find the sound you like and go from there. Return the
bookshelf speakers or sale them - to put that money towards the tower speakers.

On a side note > I do not take sides between ID and Retail - life is too short on earth.