At wits end with two channel system and need a little advice.

[MacPro]

Hi, this is my first post as a member and want to say hello and introduce myself.

I would consider myself an audio novice and I read just enough to make myself dangerous when piecing together a system. I deal within what I consider entry level budget... I would likely never spend more than $2000 on a single component (married). So within those restrictions, I am trying to get the most out of the system in this budget.

I am having a real problem getting warmth, and balance to a rather high fidelity, transparent system. I love the resolution but it becomes very un-involving, and fatiguing after extended listening periods. Nothing I own is what I would consider junky components, but the mix together needs a change...or another component like a sub..?

The space is rather large where the stereo exists.. Newer open floor plan home in which the stereo resides measures 18 x 16' x 9 that opens to a kitchen 15 x 16 to a dining room/living room 15 x 32 Pretty much rooms without doors... Giving a large space to fill unfortunately as the sofa is only 11 ft away from stereo. To make matters even more interesting my stereo has to be located in a built in wall unit that holds all components. Including pocket doors that open up to reveal speakers.

Anyhow, that is just to give one an idea of the space I am trying to optimize for the best sound within my budget. My feeling at the moment is to sell the towers and go for bookshelves and subs. Interested in anyone's thoughts on how to approach this issue.

Components:

Cambridge Audio 650A - Integrated Amplifier
JMLab/Focal 716V - Tower Speakers
ProJect 1-Xpression Carbon with 2M Bronze - Turntable and cartridge
Simaudio Moon 110LP - Phono Preamp
Cambridge 540C - Cd Player
Simaudio Moon 100D - DAC
Squeezebox Touch - High res music player
Kimber PBJ's interconnects

 

[Swerd]

Welcome to AH!

Your list of gear seems to be nice, and is in my opinion more than a step or two above "entry level".

A polite suggestion, when you provide a list of components, it would be helpful for those of us who are lazy (myself ) if you said what type of device each component is, such as Cambridge Audio 650A - Integrated amplifier. Better yet, provide a link.

I am having a real problem getting warmth, and balance to a rather high fidelity, transparent system. I love the resolution but it becomes very un-involving, and fatiguing after extended listening periods. Nothing I own is what I would consider junky components, but the mix together needs a change...or another component like a sub..?

My first reaction, is that all of your electronic components are probably not the source of your problem. Your speakers, however, might be the source.

Does the lack of warmth and fatiguing sound you hear occur at all volumes? Or is it alright at lower volumes, and become a problem at higher volumes? Do you think your system sounds too bright?

If so, I'd blame the speakers. Are these the only speakers you've known for any length of time?

I looked for a review with measurements of your speakers, but didn't find one. I did find frequency response curves of JM Lab Chorus 706 and Focal Chorus 807 speakers. I don't know how similar they might be to your 716, so all I have to say is an educated guess, not a demonstrated fact.

Both speakers show an irregular looking rise and fall at roughly 1000 Hz. The 807 looks worse to me, but both might be audible and sound "too edgy" depending on the music you're listening to.

If this is the problem with your 716 speakers, it has nothing to do with them being tower speakers. It's their midrange response. I'd recommend listening to other speakers. You mentioned $2000 (a pair?) as a price range. There are many good options at that price. Personally, I'd recommend starting with Salk SongTowers (see my links below).

706 Frequency Response Curve
SoundStage! Measurements - JMlab Chorus 706 Loudspeakers (6/2001)

807 Frequency Response Curve
SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com | SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com

 

[jcparks]

Hi and welcome... .
I was looking through all of your components and I can tell that this is not a system you take lightly. One thing I did notice though in reading through a review for your cambridge is the reviewer explained that it could be bright, which coild be problematic if paired with a bright speaker. I dont have any experience with focal but I think I remember reading they can also be bright, though I may be completely wrong about that. If they are though that could be your problem, especially with your speakers tucked away into the cabnet. The brightness can lead to listener fatigue.
I think new speakers would be the best place to start, and bookselves and subs will give you a lot more range for your money then you would get from towers.
For your speakers I would suggest a sealed model, or a port plug if they are going into a cabinet and I would look at RBH because they have a beautiful mid range. I am sure others on the forum will chime in with some more recommendations. For subs SVS, Hsu, and rythmik are the most frequently recommended on this forum, but you may also want to check out a JL audio e series.
http:// http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/e-sub-e110-e112
http:// http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/sv-sound-svs-sb-pb-2000
http:// http://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/rbh-sound-sx-61-r
Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[markw]

Those speakers, while quite detailed and somewhat on the bright side, are not bad a tall but they do lack a low end.

There's no reason to ditch them if you otherwise like them. Simply add a sub and blend it in to where these start to fall off at he low end. All powered subs offer various methods of connecting them and have variable crossovers (which you can use as a low pass filter) and a level control so they can blend with virtually any decent speaker on the market.

But, if it's the brightness of the Focals that irk you, then your only option is to look at speakers with a less prominent high end.

It's your call.

 

[zieglj01]

The word bright is subjective and not a guarantee - room and placement can be an issue.
Also do you have any type of rugs, carpet - drapes on windows > any glass around them
cabinets they are placed in.

Also speakers inside a tunnel (cubby hole), can and will have some reflection issues.
And pocket doors, are not of a friendly nature.

As stated above - I would think about testing a subwoofer - also if you try new speakers,
make sure you have a return policy, so you can test them with your placement restrictions.

 

[3db]

I would look at the room acoustics first as suggested by zieglj01 before doing any kind of speaker swap. Can you provide more detail about the room that the equipment is in, the listening area, how far the speakers are from walls., hardwood/tile floor or carpeted, windows, rugs etc.

 

[ImcLoud]

I vote for placement issues, get out the blue painters tape and start moving them babies around, contrary to what others may say I have a hard time believing a cd player, amplifier, ect can make speakers sound different, sure they can make them louder and maybe boost low end or specific tones if that is what they are designed to do, but to color the sound, I have yet to see it, or hear it rather...

I have played with the focals and that line does come off a little bright, much more noticeable at higher levels which in a room your size I don't doubt you are pushing... I would try masking tape and a tissue, tape it over the tweeter {not touching it} and listen again...

Anyway, look up what focal recomends for placement on these speakers and start there, I know you have them "built in" but maybe that is the issue, maybe a simple set of rolling stands that allows you to move them out to a preset spot when listening is all you need to be happy with them...


As for adding a sub or 2, I dont think this is going to help you high end which to me sounds like the issue...

I run subs in my music only system and it helps fill the room, frees up power for the mids and highs, ect.. But taming harsh highs I don't think it will help much... UNLESS you are turning the volume up too loud in an attempt to get more low end output? then subs will help your highs, since you can control the subs gain vs your mains...

maybe you would be a good candidate for dirac http://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series, I personally dont like rc for music only systems, but it could be helpful....

 

[lsiberian]

Sounds to me like you may have some null issues. Do you happen to have a measurement mic? If so hook it up and use REW to get us some readings.

 

[MacPro]

Your list of gear seems to be nice, and is in my opinion more than a step or two above "entry level".

A polite suggestion, when you provide a list of components, it would be helpful for those of us who are lazy (myself ) if you said what type of device each component is, such as Cambridge Audio 650A - Integrated amplifier. Better yet, provide a link.

Advice well taken. I guess I've read too many articles in magazines where my gear in comparison seems quite unremarkable.

In my particular setup I do find the sound is more balanced at 25% and below volume wise. It's only when I start to turn up the volume that things get strident. I have an SVS pb 12nsd subwoofer in my basement media room, where everything sounds really well balanced thanks to an Auralex sound absorption theatre pkg, and a Marantz 5008 Audyssey setup. Mind you the room is 18 x 14 x 8.

I could rob the theatre room of the sub for a time and place it in the family room to see the difference before buying another. My worry arises ( besides throwing out my back carrying that massive sub up the stairs.. ) if it will help the missing mid range as I am unsure will be fixed as the sub may not have effect on anything over 120 hz. I could have a scenario in which everything is fairly strident until I get frequencies of 80 hz or so and then get loud bass that comes out of nowhere once the sub becomes engaged. There isn't bass management in the Cambridge integrated for a high pass filter, and I would be running the SVS from the stereo pre-outs on the back, crossing over at the subwoofer.

It's worth a try though, for the sake of keeping my existing speakers. I saw a good review on audioholics of the SVS ultra bookshelves, and it has made me wonder if that setup with the pb 12nsd would solve the problem. Focals are great speakers, but I think in order to have a pair of their floor standers that fill my space I would be way out of my comfortable price range.

 

[MacPro]

The word bright is subjective and not a guarantee - room and placement can be an issue.
Also do you have any type of rugs, carpet - drapes on windows > any glass around them
cabinets they are placed in.

Also speakers inside a tunnel (cubby hole), can and will have some reflection issues.
And pocket doors, are not of a friendly nature.

As stated above - I would think about testing a subwoofer - also if you try new speakers,
make sure you have a return policy, so you can test them with your placement restrictions.

The family room where it is all located is hardwood flooring with an area rug 10x12 between seating position and speakers. Draperies on large window to the left. Bare wall to the right. I actually moved the speakers out into the room to see if I was getting some sort of anomalies with the "cubby hole" location, but the bass response was drastically reduced from where they were originally once tried. Definitely the wrong direction. ha.

I do have the speakers on the supplied spikes, which I have sitting on a granite tile inside the built-in as to not ruin the wood finish. Not sure if that effects mids in any way.

 

[MacPro]

Sounds to me like you may have some null issues. Do you happen to have a measurement mic? If so hook it up and use REW to get us some readings.

It is quite possible my sofa is located in the perfect worst position. Standing up and close to the rear wall around 17 feet away from the speaker I find I get the best of the low end response. I am going to try on the weekend to set up REW and get a few measurements with a Radio shack SPL meter.

 

[Swerd]

In my particular setup I do find the sound is more balanced at 25% and below volume wise. It's only when I start to turn up the volume that things get strident.

I could rob the theatre room of the sub for a time and place it in the family room to see the difference before buying another. My worry arises ( besides throwing out my back carrying that massive sub up the stairs.. ) if it will help the missing mid range as I am unsure will be fixed as the sub may not have effect on anything over 120 hz. I could have a scenario in which everything is fairly strident until I get frequencies of 80 hz or so and then get loud bass that comes out of nowhere once the sub becomes engaged. There isn't bass management in the Cambridge integrated for a high pass filter, and I would be running the SVS from the stereo pre-outs on the back, crossing over at the subwoofer.

Instead of moving the heavy subwoofer upstairs, you might try moving the 716 towers downstairs. It depends on which is easier to move.

I'm inclined to agree with you that a subwoofer, even though it can supplement the low range, can't affect the strident midrange sound of your speakers. I also don't think that's something that any room EQ software can fix. But if you move the 716s downstairs you can try that too.

 

[zieglj01]

The family room where it is all located is hardwood flooring with an area rug 10x12 between seating position and speakers. Draperies on large window to the left. Bare wall to the right. I actually moved the speakers out into the room to see if I was getting some sort of anomalies with the "cubby hole" location, but the bass response was drastically reduced from where they were originally once tried. Definitely the wrong direction. ha.

Bass from the speakers in the room, was not what I was talking about - a speaker out of a cubby hole
can tend to have less bass - that is where a sub woofer can come into play to help cover the bass - I
was talking about mids and low treble frequency reflections, which can tend to be un-friendly.

It is possible that Focal is not your cup of tea - it is possible you may like the SVS bookshelf speakers.
They do have a dip (smiley curve) between 3 and 7 khz - where the upper midrange and lower treble,
may be to your overall liking in your room.

 

[jcparks]

I agree with swerd, carry your Focals down stairs and listen to them in a different environment. If you still have the same problems with them, they may be the culprit. Any chance you can post a picture of your upstairs listening room also to be analyzed?

 

[Swerd]

… I saw a good review on audioholics of the SVS ultra bookshelves, and it has made me wonder if that setup with the pb 12nsd would solve the problem. Focals are great speakers, but I think in order to have a pair of their floor standers that fill my space I would be way out of my comfortable price range.

I just read that review of the SVS Ultra bookshelves. It reads like they may be good sounding speakers. I haven't heard them, but I have heard the SVS Ultra towers, and I think they're good. At about $1000 per pair, these bookshelf speakers have plenty of highly regarded competition.

If you decide on bookshelf speakers in that price range, I strongly recommend considering these speakers:

Philharmonic Audio at $850 per pair. The finish shown in the photo is the only finish available. I've heard these and recommend them at the top of this list.

Salk SongSurround I speakers at $895 per pair. Five different veneers plus satin black are available at this price. Salk cabinet finishes are among the best available that I've seen. Any custom finish is available at extra cost. I've also heard these and own a pair of DIY speakers (CAOW1) that are essentially identical. Highly recommended.

There is a used pair of custom-built black CAOW1 speakers for sale on the AH classifieds. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/classifieds-sell-your-gear/91533-dennis-murphy-caow1-upgraded-drivers.html. At $500 these (essentially identical to the Salk SongSurround I) would be a great deal.

Sierra-1 Bamboo Loudspeaker at $850 to $950 per pair depending on finish. I have heard these in the past, and although I'm not as familiar with them as the others on this list, but they are owned by many and highly regarded.

I am certain that all of these speakers will sound clear and detailed without any harshness in the all important mid range. Although I haven't heard your 716 towers, I'm willing to guess (based on other Focal speakers I have heard) that any of these bookshelves will produce improved sound for you.

The integrated amp you now have should be able to easily drive any of these bookshelves.

 

[MacPro]

I agree with swerd, carry your Focals down stairs and listen to them in a different environment. If you still have the same problems with them, they may be the culprit. Any chance you can post a picture of your upstairs listening room also to be analyzed?

Here is one photo of the room. In behind the two doors on either side of the fire place is where the speakers are located.

*photo was inserted here, need to have 6 posts first. Stay tuned.

Taking the towers down below would be the easiest venture comparatively.

As a side note, the speaker wire I am using is in wall rated, four wire 14 gauge. Wired in parallel, so with the Cambridge that should be enough power getting to the speakers.

 

[MacPro]

Thanks for the options on a lot of brands I haven't been exposed to. I like the idea of a ribbon tweeter on the Philharmonic. Truth be known, most of my speaker experience comes from exposure to Paradigm, PSB, Monitor Audio, B&W, and Focal in different settings. I am located in Canada, although we have a distributor for SVS here, I am unsure if some of the brands mentioned would ship cross border, as I would like to demo if at all possible.

 

[Swerd]

Thanks for the options on a lot of brands I haven't been exposed to. I like the idea of a ribbon tweeter on the Philharmonic. Truth be known, most of my speaker experience comes from exposure to Paradigm, PSB, Monitor Audio, B&W, and Focal in different settings. I am located in Canada, although we have a distributor for SVS here, I am unsure if some of the brands mentioned would ship cross border, as I would like to demo if at all possible.

I know for a fact that Jim Salk (of Salk Signature Sound) and Dennis Murphy (of Philharmonic Audio) do ship to Canada. I should also point out that Dennis Murphy is the crossover designer for both Salk and Philharmonic Audio, and all of those speakers share a characteristic sound quality. If you haven't already guessed, they are my favorites .

I don't know for certain whether Ascend Acoustics ships to Canada, but I'd be very surprised if they didn't.

The owner of those used CAOW1 speakers is located in Seattle. Is that close to you?

 

[zieglj01]

I am located in Canada, although we have a distributor for SVS here, I am unsure if some of the brands mentioned would ship cross border, as I would like to demo if at all possible.

If there is a Wharfedale dealer in your area - then check out the Wharfedale Jade 3 speakers.
A lot of people are impressed with the Jade series.
Jade 3 | Wharfedale Hi-Fi

 

[Pupp]

You might be able to get a warmer sound with higher quality speaker wires. They can make a huge difference in the warm/cold area of the sound. That being said, the price of speaker wire goes up fast for that achievement. You'd have to talk to a professional to see which wire would suit that need, and if it's even within your budget.

I personally went with decent but reasonably prices speaker wire when I had my system installed. I wasn't looking for a "warmer" sound, but just fidelity with movies. I do use my speakers for music too. I use DLNA on Media Monkey to send music to my home theater, or use Rhapsody via my Oppo blu ray player. but my primary concern was for movies, and in that regard, most home theater wire is designed for fidelity rather than a warmer sound.