Is it worth buying a new dac

[jochem1975]

Hello,
I'm wondering if buying a DAC will improve my system.
My setup is the following:
AV Amp: Arcam avr450 (with B&W 804S speakers Bi Amped and a sub)
i am currently not using surround.
Cd player: Nad C545bee (connected analog to AVR450 so i am using the Dac in the cd player)
Digital audio player: Pioneer N50 (with a Synology Nas) also connected analog.
I prefer the sound of the dacs in the pioneer and Nad over the Arcam Avr 450.

If i wanted to buy a Dac which one is adviced in my system? Or is it better to buy a new CD player or Digital audio player.

Thanks in advance,

Jochem

 

[markw]

Doesn't the N50 have a digital input you can use?

In any case, you might want to read (and absorb) the information contained in this article before making any decisions.

 

[jochem1975]

Thanks for the article,

Yes i use the dac in the N50
The thing is that i believe i hear a difference between the dacs used.The one in the Arcam sounds less the other 2 sound almost the same.So i thought when i buy a really good dac the sound is even better.

Kind regards
Jochem

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

The thing is that i believe i hear a difference between the dacs used.

Kind regards
Jochem

Yes, and I want to believe that I could ever hear difference between two DAC with matched output level and both free of interference in blind test, but just like flying saucers such difference does not exist - least not could ever be heard by such crude mechanism like human ear

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do not hear any difference between DAC as long as the levels are matched and neither one uses any kind of EQ/DSP.

 

[PENG]

You may be asking such question in the wrong place. Few people here would believe the DAC in the AVR-450 would not sound as good as the other two. I am sure some do, but very few.

 

[jochem1975]

I have all the settings the same.
The only thing the Arcam does is in stereo(everything else i put off)

I use Qed performance audo interconnects(analog) to connect the cd player and the Pioneer N50 to the Arcam avr450.
I use QED Performance Digital Coaxial Audio to connect the same way digital.
If i switch between Analog and digital the analog really sounds to me much better(we can dicuss if it is better but it sounds different).Got nothing to do with believing.
I am not the only one who can hear it.

thanks,

Jochem

 

[crossedover]

I have all the settings the same.
The only thing the Arcam does is in stereo(everything else i put off)

I use Qed performance audo interconnects(analog) to connect the cd player and the Pioneer N50 to the Arcam avr450.
I use QED Performance Digital Coaxial Audio to connect the same way digital.
If i switch between Analog and digital the analog really sounds to me much better(we can dicuss if it is better but it sounds different).Got nothing to do with believing.
I am not the only one who can hear it.

thanks,

Jochem

So are those expensive 1m cables helping?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I have all the settings the same.
The only thing the Arcam does is in stereo(everything else i put off)

I use Qed performance audo interconnects(analog) to connect the cd player and the Pioneer N50 to the Arcam avr450.
I use QED Performance Digital Coaxial Audio to connect the same way digital.
If i switch between Analog and digital the analog really sounds to me much better(we can dicuss if it is better but it sounds different).Got nothing to do with believing.
I am not the only one who can hear it.

thanks,

Jochem

Did you matched the levels? No you didn't.

 

[jochem1975]

How do i match the levels?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

How do i match the levels?

Do you have an SPL Meter? like this one: Amazon Top Reviewer Highly Recommend! DB POWER® Digital Sound Noise Level Meter Tester Decibel Meter 40-130db of Large LCD screen with 4 Digits Reading - Multi Testers - Amazon.com

 

[ImcLoud]

Almost everyone on this site is going to say that, your internal DAC and a $5 cable is going to sound the same as a $500 Dac and $150 cable.... If there is a difference, it is not one that our ear can distinguish from, if your equipment has a flat eq and is not changing anything about the sound and you play each DAC at the same db level, the sound will be the same...
I find this to be true.. Amps {of the same configuration, obviously tube amps sound different than full class a amps} all sound the same given the same input and same level, preamps sound the same, dac's sound the same, cd players sound the same, cables sound the same, some like some brands over others, but for the most part you will not hear the difference between modern electronics of the same purpose... In other words, spend how ever much money you want, but understand you are buying the name and aesthetics of the more expensive gear because they are going to sound just like the cheap stuff... Speakers make night and day differences, not electronics...

That being said, are you using this system for music only? If its just for music do yourself a favor and shorten up the signal path, instead of spending money on an expensive dac, buy another sub, or buy a music preamp/dac that handles your crossing... We will never tell you not to spend money on your system but spend it on something that is going to be an audible difference.. Doubling up your subs will smooth room response and blend the system better, running a $100 mini dsp or a preamp that lets you tube the crossing will make a big difference... IMO, changing a dac wont on its own create a difference in sound.. But there are many things that will...

 

[jochem1975]

Thanks for the info!!

Yes i am only using it for music (at the moment)

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

For the benefit of OP: Here's a reason why we insist on "level matching" - the flaw in any human ear is louder sounds better to us.
We can hear the difference in volume, but not always understand the small variations are different due to nothing more but a small level difference.

To make the issues even worse audio memory in humans is very VERY short.

This issue is almost impossible to overcome without using tools to eliminate human bias.

What I'mLoud and ADTG saying are - they both had tried very expensive electronics, but in the end came to same simple conclusion.

It's the speakers which affect the sound the most and by FAR.

DSP processing/EQ is not a bad way to go to in effort to improve sound, but keep in mind - EQ is not free lunch - you will loose volume - http://noaudiophile.com/DSP_Corrections/

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks for the info!!

Yes i am only using it for music (at the moment)

Whether your system is music only, movie only, or all of the above, the DAC in itself is not going to significantly improve anything, unless the component applies some sort of Dynamic EQ effects or similar.

 

[ImcLoud]

Thanks for the info!!

Yes i am only using it for music (at the moment)

So if its just for music, some here disagree but I like to keep my path as short as possible, I have used avr's for music and when doing critical listening, you can hear a difference between something direct like, source-volume control-amp-speakers, I know avrs have direct modes and music modes of all sorts, but I could hear a difference in my $2K+ yamaha, not that it changed the sound in bad way, I just don't want the music changed or as little as possible....

So going from your cd player {digital out} to a dac with a volume control to a cross over {like the mini dsp in a box} and then to an amplifier you will have a pretty direct path with no video circuits, room correction circuits, ect... The sound seems cleaner, clearer, and more authentic...

Something like a $950 Bstock parasound P5 {which has a highly regarded internal dac}, a really nice crossover system with easy to use dials, dual sub outputs, tons of inputs, ect...
with a $600 pair of Bstock outlaw 2200 mono block amplifier, and another subwoofer {not sure what sub you have} but for a couple thousand you can have a real nice 2.2 system

 

[jochem1975]

Really interesting information.

it is a total different point of view then that i am used to!!
I believe it can be a difference in sound level.
what you are saying that a better can buy a new stereo amp....
Looked at the Emotivia website(looks impressive) i never heard of the brand.It is not common in europe.I also can't find any European reviews on the net.
Don't even think you can buy it here.

Thanks,

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Really interesting information.

it is a total different point of view then that i am used to!!
I believe it can be a difference in sound level.
what you are saying that a better can buy a new stereo amp....
Looked at the Emotivia website(looks impressive) i never heard of the brand.It is not common in europe.I also can't find any European reviews on the net.
Don't even think you can buy it here.

Thanks,

I would just use a good AVR or AVR + add amp later if needed or Pre-pro + amp (whatever is available to you).

You should read The Audio Critic back issues regarding DAC.

The Audio Critic

 

[ImcLoud]

Really interesting information.

it is a total different point of view then that i am used to!!
I believe it can be a difference in sound level.
what you are saying that a better can buy a new stereo amp....
Looked at the Emotivia website(looks impressive) i never heard of the brand.It is not common in europe.I also can't find any European reviews on the net.
Don't even think you can buy it here.

Thanks,

Emos prices are starting to get high, they are still about the best deal around, but now other brands are close enough to be considered especially when on bstock... For example if you want a dac Emo's XDA2 for $220 is a great deal and can act like a preamp, but now if you are using subs or need analog inputs you will need another component, the mini dsp can handle the sub crossing but the analog inputs would mean you need a preamp, Emos' XSP1 is a good choice but now you are up to $1000 where you can get the bstock halo p5 which has a nice dac and is made by parasound {I really like the brand}... So when emo had $600 2 channel amps that pushed over 200w per channel and the usp1 for $300 it was a nice price point and since the competition was double if not more than that it was not worth considering much else... But now other companies became more competitive and emos price have gone up, its a tougher decision...

If you have a specific budget to make your system better let us know what it is, what sub do you have and would you consider getting another? Them are things that will make a difference, a "better" dac is not going to make you happy unless you are subject to placebos....

 

[jochem1975]

i'm not sure if i want to keep the sub.At this moment i turned it off.
It is a JBL sub (E150-P)like 10 years old.
For me there is enough bass in the B&W 804s.

Not sure what the budget is.
I have the arcam now for 4 months.Maybe i will sell it and buy preamp and amp for stereo.
One more question what has been said about the interconnects is this the same for the speaker cable?