Houston, one of my Revel Salon's may have a problem

[RichB]

My Right Revel Salon can sounds a bit scratchy. I notice it when playing tracks with Piano solos. Although, it is not awful.

I have switched channels on the HA-1 and Parasound amp. Played the same channel on the other Salon and it persists and occurs only in the right Salon.

The Rear Studios are fine when hooked up as the mains.
Covering the tweeter makes no difference so it seems to be the midrange.

Should I suspect the driver or the crossover or something else?

Thanks,

Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm sorry to hear about this. I'd recommend using test tones (available on the internet) at low volumes to isolate the frequency range with the problem, and then I'd give Revel a call. I haven't talked to them recently, but the last time I did I found them to be very accessible and helpful. They take a lot of pride in the Salon products. I'd give them a chance to help you.

 

[RichB]

Thanks, I'll give it a try but I might have to wait until after the weekend.

I have had good support from them when the Voice midrange driver went.
It took 8 months for the replacement because of production issues, but turned out well in he end.

- Rich

 

[TLS Guy]

My Right Revel Salon can sounds a bit scratchy. I notice it when playing tracks with Piano solos. Although, it is not awful.

I have switched channels on the HA-1 and Parasound amp. Played the same channel on the other Salon and it persists and occurs only in the right Salon.

The Rear Studios are fine when hooked up as the mains.
Covering the tweeter makes no difference so it seems to be the midrange.

Should I suspect the driver or the crossover or something else?

Thanks,

Rich

It will almost certainly be one of the mid range drivers. One or both has been over driven and the VC has bubbled and or dropped a turn due to overheating. This has resulted in gap rub, which is what you are hearing.

Mid range driver failures are relatively common. Everyone assumes the power is in the bass. It is not, it is in the mid range largely, especially from 150 to 2.5 KHz. That is where the bulk of the power is delivered.

The problem is that the speakers are smaller, and the VCs are smaller. In addition the movement of the voice coil is less than a woofer's and this reduces the cooling compared to a woofer.

In designing high powered monitors, there are design aspects that can mitigate the problem.

Crossover to the mid range in the 350 Hz to 400 Hz range and not lower. There are other really good reasons to choose this area for the crossover.

Try and use an MTM approach, so there are two drivers to share the power.

Use of dome mid ranges, or drivers not driven at the bass of the cone. Examples of the former are the ATC mid range and the Dynaudio D76. Dynaudio and Morel have examples of of cone mid ranges driven other than at the bass of the cone for instance the Dynaudio M75. The Dynaudio M75 has a 2.5" diameter voice coil.

Use edge wound flattened wire for the voice coil. Use highly precise manufacturing techniques to make the VC gap very small to allow maximum transfer of heat from VC to pole piece.

Making the driver as sensitive and efficient as possible reduces power and heat in the VC.

These problems have always been with us, and made mid range drivers susceptible to failure.

There are less good high powered mid range drivers available than on the fingers of one hand.

 

[Irvrobinson]

It will almost certainly be one of the mid range drivers. One or both has been over driven and the VC has bubbled and or dropped a turn due to overheating. This has resulted in gap rub, which is what you are hearing.

Mid range driver failures are relatively common. Everyone assumes the power is in the bass. It is not, it is in the mid range largely, especially from 150 to 2.5 KHz. That is where the bulk of the power is delivered.

The problem is that the speakers are smaller, and the VCs are smaller. In addition the movement of the voice coil is less than a woofer's and this reduces the cooling compared to a woofer.

In designing high powered monitors, there are design aspects that can mitigate the problem.

Crossover to the mid range in the 350 Hz to 400 Hz range and not lower. There are other really good reasons to choose this area for the crossover.

Try and use an MTM approach, so there are two drivers to share the power.

Use of dome mid ranges, or drivers not driven at the bass of the cone. Examples of the former are the ATC mid range and the Dynaudio D76. Dynaudio and Morel have examples of of cone mid ranges driven other than at the bass of the cone for instance the Dynaudio M75. The Dynaudio M75 has a 2.5" diameter voice coil.

Use edge wound flattened wire for the voice coil. Use highly precise manufacturing techniques to make the VC gap very small to allow maximum transfer of heat from VC to pole piece.

Making the driver as sensitive and efficient as possible reduces power and heat in the VC.

These problems have always been with us, and made mid range drivers susceptible to failure.

There are less good high powered mid range drivers available than on the fingers of one hand.

Yeah, I figured one of the drivers was blown too, but debugging a design as complex as the Salon1 over the internet is foolhardy. Rich has been a really bad boy, feeding these speakers at least 500W per channel at times (he's seen the clipping warning light illuminate on an ATI AT3000). I'm not surprised that he's over-driven one of the drivers. I'm not a betting man, which is why I recommended test tones to figure out which one.

Edit - Rich, a 40Hz test tone should work for the woofers, a 250Hz tone should work for the mid bass driver, a 1KHz test tone for the midrange driver, and a 4KHz test tone for the front tweeter. I'd try a 10KHz test tone to isolate the rear tweeter, and just make sure it's clean.

 

[herbu]

I have had good support from them when the Voice midrange driver went.

Rich has been a really bad boy, feeding these speakers at least 500W per channel at times

Rich, seems you like it loud. After you get the Salon(s) fixed, maybe you should send them my way and step up to some big boy speakers.

 

[RichB]

Yeah, I figured one of the drivers was blown too, but debugging a design as complex as the Salon1 over the internet is foolhardy.

That will not stop us. Seriously, thanks for the help.
I'll PM you about the possible kidney stone issue

Rich has been a really bad boy, feeding these speakers at least 500W per channel at times (he's seen the clipping warning light illuminate on an ATI AT3000). I'm not surprised that he's over-driven one of the drivers. I'm not a betting man, which is why I recommended test tones to figure out which one.

Yes, but you hope your past won't catch up with you. My brother went to college in the 70's and was fully gray by the time he was 40. Trust me, it's understandable

Edit - Rich, a 40Hz test tone should work for the woofers, a 250Hz tone should work for the mid bass driver, a 1KHz test tone for the midrange driver, and a 4KHz test tone for the front tweeter. I'd try a 10KHz test tone to isolate the rear tweeter, and just make sure it's clean.

Thanks again. I'll give that a shot.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It will almost certainly be one of the mid range drivers. One or both has been over driven and the VC has bubbled and or dropped a turn due to overheating. This has resulted in gap rub, which is what you are hearing.

Mid range driver failures are relatively common. Everyone assumes the power is in the bass. It is not, it is in the mid range largely, especially from 150 to 2.5 KHz. That is where the bulk of the power is delivered.

The problem is that the speakers are smaller, and the VCs are smaller. In addition the movement of the voice coil is less than a woofer's and this reduces the cooling compared to a woofer.

In designing high powered monitors, there are design aspects that can mitigate the problem.

Crossover to the mid range in the 350 Hz to 400 Hz range and not lower. There are other really good reasons to choose this area for the crossover.

Try and use an MTM approach, so there are two drivers to share the power.

Use of dome mid ranges, or drivers not driven at the bass of the cone. Examples of the former are the ATC mid range and the Dynaudio D76. Dynaudio and Morel have examples of of cone mid ranges driven other than at the bass of the cone for instance the Dynaudio M75. The Dynaudio M75 has a 2.5" diameter voice coil.

Use edge wound flattened wire for the voice coil. Use highly precise manufacturing techniques to make the VC gap very small to allow maximum transfer of heat from VC to pole piece.

Making the driver as sensitive and efficient as possible reduces power and heat in the VC.

These problems have always been with us, and made mid range drivers susceptible to failure.

There are less good high powered mid range drivers available than on the fingers of one hand.

You think the midrange driver in this case is thermally and mechanically damaged due to too much power delivery ?

So he should either use a smaller amp or turn down the volume?

 

[RichB]

It will almost certainly be one of the mid range drivers. One or both has been over driven and the VC has bubbled and or dropped a turn due to overheating. This has resulted in gap rub, which is what you are hearing.

Mid range driver failures are relatively common. Everyone assumes the power is in the bass. It is not, it is in the mid range largely, especially from 150 to 2.5 KHz. That is where the bulk of the power is delivered.

This seems to be the most likely scenario.
Here are image of my right and left midranges. It is not that easy to see by the left is perfectly smooth and there is some slight dimpling on the right midrange.

Thanks for your help,

Rich

 

[RichB]

You think the midrange driver in this case is thermally and mechanically damaged due to too much power delivery ?

So he should either use a smaller amp or turn down the volume?

I refuse to grow up.
Got those new RBH bad boys yet ?

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Rich, seems you like it loud. After you get the Salon(s) fixed, maybe you should send them my way and step up to some big boy speakers.

I'll keep that in mind. In the meantime, it may be time to price a midrange and locate the sheet with the whole cut in it that is used for speaker surgery

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I refuse to grow up.
Got those new RBH bad boys yet ?

- Rich

Not damn yet.

People have been getting their RBH Reference speakers after about 8 weeks once ordered. It seems all the Reference speakers are only made after the orders are placed. So it takes 6-8 weeks.

The SX-T2/R has 4 reference-grade aluminum cast midrange drivers and plenty of efficiency (92dB/2.83v/m). So hopefully the AT3000 will never thermally and mechanically damage any of these, especially @ less than 94dB.

Perhaps Revel need to change the Salon3 to have 4 midrange drivers.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeah, I figured one of the drivers was blown too, but debugging a design as complex as the Salon1 over the internet is foolhardy. Rich has been a really bad boy, feeding these speakers at least 500W per channel at times (he's seen the clipping warning light illuminate on an ATI AT3000). I'm not surprised that he's over-driven one of the drivers. I'm not a betting man, which is why I recommended test tones to figure out which one.

Edit - Rich, a 40Hz test tone should work for the woofers, a 250Hz tone should work for the mid bass driver, a 1KHz test tone for the midrange driver, and a 4KHz test tone for the front tweeter. I'd try a 10KHz test tone to isolate the rear tweeter, and just make sure it's clean.

I'm not debugging it, except in one aspect, the 150 Hz crossover between woofers and mid. I have maintained all along, that that was not a good design decision for many reasons.

The rest is general information. Speakers with dedicated mid range drivers present problems that I suspect most do not think about.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm not debugging it, except in one aspect, the 150 Hz crossover between woofers and mid. I have maintained all along, that that was not a good design decision for many reasons.

Yes, you certainly have. I have to confess, I was waiting for your post.

 

[Alex2507]

Just upgrade your mid to the one used in the Infinity Primus. You might need to cut into the front baffle a little bit to fit it in but a little caulking will go a long way so fear not.

 

[RichB]

Just upgrade your mid to the one used in the Infinity Primus. You might need to cut into the front baffle a little bit to fit it in but a little caulking will go a long way so fear not.

It would certainly cost less than the Revel midrange driver

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Rich, seems you like it loud. After you get the Salon(s) fixed, maybe you should send them my way and step up to some big boy speakers.

Yeah, I think Rich needs a pair of these monsters.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, you certainly have. I have to confess, I was waiting for your post.

Thank you for that. There is one other thing I have done in my speakers, that I'm not aware of elsewhere, which does not mean it has not been done. I have transferred the BSC duty to the upper 10" driver. This reduces the power to the mid range drivers enormously. This is much more easily done active. However it would not be impossible passive.

It looks from his picture, that he really heated up the cone! So I expect that the V/C has significant deformation.

We have found out that these are domestic speakers and not double duty domestic/pro speakers. He will have to set the volume accordingly.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I can see the future and I see JTR speakers in RichB's future
I dare Rich to play speakers like Noelis 210 at full throttle

 

[RichB]

It will almost certainly be one of the mid range drivers. One or both has been over driven and the VC has bubbled and or dropped a turn due to overheating. This has resulted in gap rub, which is what you are hearing.

Rich, a 40Hz test tone should work for the woofers, a 250Hz tone should work for the mid bass driver, a 1KHz test tone for the midrange driver, and a 4KHz test tone for the front tweeter. I'd try a 10KHz test tone to isolate the rear tweeter, and just make sure it's clean.

I got a chance to run the tone tests and everything sounded good except the right salon mid-range.

Playing a 1 kHz tone, I found the right-channel to be less clean and then, duh, it occurred to me to break out the OmniMic2.

There are significantly higher harmonics at 2K, 3.2K, and 4K on the right channel.
Spectrum analysis are attached.

All Other tones were clean on both speakers.

Thanks again,

Rich