Upgrading, whats a good next step?

[sendcakeplease]

Hi there!

I've gotten sick of a nameless list of music in the cloud and have gotten back into CDs, listening to full albums, and even got a turntable. Holy moly, CDs sound so much better than the crap i had in my computer. So nice to be excited about music again! This is leading me to want better equipment. I played the violin for 16 years and have a good ear, and my connection to music has missing for about a decade due to the mp3 [lack of] quality, hence getting excited about it again now. I'm also a filmmaker and so watch a lot of movies in the same room that I use for music listening.

I'm investigating what the next thing I should upgrade should be, and I would love opinions.

Current setup:

- Audio Technics LP120 turntable, using the internal phono amp
- Samsung $40 Blu Ray player delivers digital CD info to receiver via coax
- Marantz SR6300 receiver outputs to:
- Klipsch rb3 (2002) left and right speakers
- Klipsch KV-1 (2002) center speaker

The room is too small to really make good use of rears for surround, and theres no place to put em, so I've moved those (lower grade Klipsch bookshelves) to use as B speakers in the kitchen.

I'm into music now, and don't need banging home theater. I'm happy going just stereo for movies if that is the right move for the music listening. I listen to classical, vocal, rock, dance/electronica - zeppelin, adele, mumford, ella, phish, pearl jam, snoop dogg, chemical brothers. Its all over the map.

I'm reasonably happy with what I'm getting from the Marantz receiver + Klipsch rb3 L and R, but the sound (i think) lacks definition and I want an upgrade. I found a pair of the highly touted Totem Dreamcatcher bookshelves used on Audiogon for $350 and pulled the trigger on em--they're on their way. I've read awesome things, so I can't wait to hear em.

Soooo, my exact question is - whats a good next upgrade that will give the most perceptible improvement? (~$1000 max)

1. Is my Marantz receiver good to drive the Totems? I looked at something like the Yamaha A-S1000 receiver, also the REGA BRIO R has been much talked about. But both these options would require an external DAC as well.
2. would an external DAC be *much* better than whats in the Marantz for decoding the CD digital feed?
3. would an external phono amp be *much* better than whats in the AT-LP120?
4. Preamps? Necessary?
5. Will the Totem Dreamcatchers work well with the Klipsch KV-1 center speaker, well enough for movies? (or would it be better quality to route the dialogue to the Totems and ditch the center channel altogether).

I've read that getting a very good receiver / integrated amp like the Yamaha A-S1000 is a good package deal. If it can also do surround with my three speakers that would be good, but getting the best sounding music trumps having surround at this point. I listen much more than I watch.

As you can see I have a lot of questions. I'd love to hear your thoughts, and thanks in advance for any recommendations.

Thanks!
Keegan

 

[markw]

I honestly suggest getting your new speakers and live with them for a while. Then, resubmit your question.

Why? The your speakers and your phono cartridge will make the most audiable change in your system. Obviously, these will only affect your two channel listening but that's where your most ctitical listening takes place, I believe.

If you're using your receiver to "force" more than two channels out of a stereo source you're gonna "smear" the sound anyway.

 

[sendcakeplease]

That feels like excellent advice - change one thing at a time. And definitely the two channel listening will be the most critical. So youre thinking for the LPs these are the two top sound quality predictors:

1. speakers
2. phono cartridge

What about for the CD side? DAC?

Thanks so much for the response!

 

[markw]

Speakers and cartridge without a doubt have the most affect on the sound.

An external phono amp (and perhaps a whole new TT) might even be a worthwhile improvement. In fact, those two might be the best starting point. But, start with a cartridge. That can be switched from TT to TT if/when you upgrade. Then worry about a phono preamp. If you're still feeling froggy after that, go for the TT itself. You'll already have everything else you need.

DAC's are questionable. Some people say yea and some say it's no big deal. Personally, I'd worry about that last, if at all.

 

[JohnnieB]

As far as the center channel goes, the L/R may image well enough that you wouldn't need one. However you can try the Klipsch and see if sounds pan across the front stage without tone or pitch change. Otherwise it's usually recommended to stick to the center designed to mate to your L/R.

The frequency response on the Dreamcatchers also suggests a quality subwoofer may be in order at some point to get the full range of bass. SVS, Hsu, Rhythmic are just a few of the most recommended.

Enjoy.

 

[sendcakeplease]

on the vinyl side, the next upgrade will certainly be a better cartridge. And what about phono amps? Is the $150 Phono Box from Project good enough if I want to end up toying with MC cartridges? Or is there a big advantage to having the micro-adjustments on the Phono Box DS ($350)? The Yamaha A-s2000 integrated amp (rave reviews) has caught my eye, and it has a discrete but internal phono amp as well - with a switch MM/MC. My guess is this is about the same quality as the base Phono Box? - so again, is there a big advantage to having the MC adjustments on the more expensive Phono Box?

subwoofer:yeah, I have an infinity sw-12 (circa 2002) thats boomy and I'll be getting rid of as well - i've had my eyes on an SVS 10", but now also the Totem Kin Sub 8" is intriguing, and being from the same company I bet will work well with the Dreamcatchers. Also, Dreamcatcher center channel should be in the future for surround.

Next: Can I preserve the existing Marantz reciever I have for HT setup and add a high quality stereo pipeline to it? Someone else said something about getting another integrated amp for the stereo music side and then something about "HT bypass mode", which I could then feed into the Marantz for Left and Right speaker inclusion in the HT output of the Marantz?

If I can have my high quality stereo AND preserve surround sound with the existing Marantz, that would be ideal. Thoughts? Thanks again!!

 

[markw]

on the vinyl side, the next upgrade will certainly be a better cartridge. And what about phono amps? Is the $150 Phono Box from Project good enough if I want to end up toying with MC cartridges? Or is there a big advantage to having the micro-adjustments on the Phono Box DS ($350)? The Yamaha A-s2000 integrated amp (rave reviews) has caught my eye, and it has a discrete but internal phono amp as well - with a switch MM/MC. My guess is this is about the same quality as the base Phono Box? - so again, is there a big advantage to having the MC adjustments on the more expensive Phono Box?

One thing at a time. First, a cartridge. Then, a phono preamp. Personally, I think MC is highly overrated. You can dive really, really deep down that rabbit hole. Set your limits and stick with it.

subwoofer:yeah, I have an infinity sw-12 (circa 2002) thats boomy and I'll be getting rid of as well - i've had my eyes on an SVS 10", but now also the Totem Kin Sub 8" is intriguing, and being from the same company I bet will work well with the Dreamcatchers. Also, Dreamcatcher center channel should be in the future for surround.

You're better off getting a sub from people who specialize in subs. The best bets nowadays would be SVS or Hsu.

Next: Can I preserve the existing Marantz reciever I have for HT setup and add a high quality stereo pipeline to it? Someone else said something about getting another integrated amp for the stereo music side and then something about "HT bypass mode", which I could then feed into the Marantz for Left and Right speaker inclusion in the HT output of the Marantz?

If I can have my high quality stereo AND preserve surround sound with the existing Marantz, that would be ideal. Thoughts? Thanks again!!

Your Marantz should be just fine. Try your new speakers, and perhaps that matchng center (and a new sub) before pulling your hair out.

Listen to that "someone else" at your own risk. They have no idea what they are talking about. You cannot feed an integrated amp into your receiver, period end of discussion.

 

[sendcakeplease]

Excellent. You're advice is valued! I'll get the new speakers and cartridge and enjoy it for a while. Thanks again!

 

[markw]

you're at the start of the long journey, grasshopper. Take your time and grow, one step at a time.

First, here's a review of your new speakers. As you can see, they might appear a bit "bass challanged" to what you're used to. A better (the best you can afford) subwoofer might be your next logical step. But, remember, a lot of a subwoofers boominess can be tamed by simply moving it a bit, particularly away from walls and corners.

Likewise, they are less efficient than your Klipschs so don't be surprised if you have to turn it up a bit to attain the same volume.

Then, when you're satisfied with the sound, you can see about getting a matching center if you want to continue down the multi-channel route.

Of course, if you choose to go purely two channel, that opens up a whole 'nuther can of worms.

In any case, I'd start from the back for now and work towards the front.

...just don't go snatching my pebbles. (Ref: Kung Fu - The 60's Television show)

 

[ImcLoud]

I would leave your current system alone and build a music only system either on the side of it or in another room...

Try the totems with something like this DENON DRA-697CI AM/FM Multi-Source/Zone Stereo AV Receiver | Accessories4less then add a subwoofer or two, like this Dual SB-1000 then add a mini dsp 2x4 {take out the jumpers in the 697 and plug the outs to the dsp then the highs back into the 697s amp and the lows into the subs amps...
OK so that comes to twice your budget but you don't have to do it all rite now, you obviously are an "upgraded" start with the subs {although them denons don't last, says only 2 left, and that is an awesome price for that receiver}...

I agree with seeing if you even like the totems first, I hear they are hit or miss I am not a fan of them myself, I have heard a few of them and I think even the towers need subs...

 

[Swerd]

As mark pointed out, speakers are where the rubber hits the road. You will find more variety in sound among different speakers than with any other single type of component of an audio system. Money well spent on speakers you like will pay off more than with other components.

You mentioned that you played the violin for 16 years and have a good ear. If you played a good recording of solo violin or piano, what did you think of those Klipsch speakers? I'd ask the same question for those Totems, or for any other speaker. Your experience gives you an advantage that most don't have – you are familiar with exactly how the violin really does sound.

I read that review of the Dreamcatchers that mark linked, especially the last page where the measurement graphs appear. There are some comments by the measurement guy, John Atkinson, that make me wonder about those speakers. Here is figure 3, the frequency response curve of the woofer (blue), the port (red), and the tweeter (green). Note the uneven response in the midrange and higher starting at about 1,000 Hz. Note also how the woofer (blue line) still responds with a nasty looking peak just above 10,000 Hz.

It says (below figure 3):

The speaker offers a flat midrange, but the use of a first-order crossover—a single air-cored inductor is in series with the drive-unit—means that the woofer's output extends throughout the treble, with a strong peak evident at 12kHz. The tweeter is fed via a single 4.1µF plastic-film capacitor and, as Bob noted in his auditioning, the highs are a little elevated.

Further down he says:

​

But when Bob wrote that "the degree of resolution in the midrange let me listen deeply into each recording to uncover an extraordinary amount of detail," I do wonder if he was responding, not only to the flat tonal balance but also to the speaker's resonant problems emphasizing recorded detail.

And finally, 3 paragraphs down from figure 4:

However, the more I listened, and more importantly, as I listened to a wide range of different kinds of music, I became aware of a degree of congestion in the upper midrange and a slightly nasal coloration. Both characteristics were apparent with solo piano recordings. With my recording of Robert Schumann's Symphonic Études, which is scheduled for release in the fall, piano notes in the region of the upper-frequency port resonances were accentuated, jumping forward a little in the soundstage. Richard Lehnert's speaking voice on Editor's Choice also revealed the nasal coloration.

I have heard these speakers a number of years ago, but I didn't listen to them critically. These comments make me wonder if a single violin will sound unnatural. At first listen, it may sound unusually detailed. But it may ultimately become unpleasant sounding or even fatiguing for the ears.

On the other hand, you may find you like these speakers. So listen carefully and learn what you like.

 

[sendcakeplease]

Thanks for the awesome analysis, swerd. Its a strange thing, and why I totally agree its always important to take a listen and decide what you like. Because despite those technical flaws or inaccuracies revealed in the testing, the reviewer felt an incredible addiction and emotional attachment to the speakers. So surely I will listen to them and form my own opinion. I also I made friends with my local shop and the guy there said I could bring in my speakers and compare them to those in the shop, specifically I'm interested to put them up against B&Ws and Paradigms in the same range.

Continued thanks for the thoughts.

If I develop a music-only system in the same room with another dedicated stereo amp, it seems I could use a speaker switch like the Russound-AB-2.2 to connect the same L & R speakers to both the HT amp and the music-only amp and be able to just switch back and forth depending on what I'm listening to? Any reason not to do something like this?

 

[markw]

you could, but neither of those speakers are large and the Totems are downright petite. You Since you're talking about both a receiverand an integrated amp, you could probably stack 'em and not waste any real estate.

but, consider the upsides to two separate systems. I have, and run two myself, but it is not without consequences.

1) You cannot share subwoofers.

2) you cannot share your Blu-Ray (or CD) playrer.

On the up side,

1) Many (well, some) integrated amps have built in phono stages.

2) Dedicated CD players with analog outputs are abundant and reasonable.

I'm sure there are other pros and cons but this is just a little food for thought.

but, yes, always let your ears decide what sounds good to you.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Will the Totem Dreamcatchers work well with the Klipsch KV-1 center speaker, well enough for movies? (or would it be better quality to route the dialogue to the Totems and ditch the center channel altogether).

I think it's better to use the Klipsch for the discrete Center than to use just 2 Totem bookshelf speakers to create a phantom center. The Center is mainly for movie dialogue anyway.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Totem does have a dip of ~ -7db around 2kHz and peak of ~ +5dB @ 10kHz. So by most people's standards, it is certainly not an "accurate" speaker based on the measurements.

But, hey, if they sound great to you, then I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

But if the sound is NOT what you want, then don't waste any money on CD players, DAC, amps, and integrated amps because these things will not fix those measurements.

If the sound is a little disappointing and you have an AVR (like Denon X1000, X2000, etc.) with Audyssey XT, you could try Audyssey and/or Dynamic EQ (Audyssey Bypass L/R) + your subwoofer and see if that will improve the sound.

But you haven't even received the Totem speakers yet. Maybe they sound great to you regardless of the measurements. Measurements don't tell you everything.

 

[Swerd]

The Totem does have a dip of ~ -7db around 2kHz and peak of ~ +5dB @ 10kHz. So by most people's standards, it is certainly not an "accurate" speaker based on the measurements.

But, hey, if they sound great to you, then I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

But if the sound is NOT what you want, then don't waste any money on CD players, DAC, amps, and integrated amps because these things will not fix those measurements.

Yes, good point.

If you don't like the overall sound, I'd be willing to bet the mortgage, its the speakers. There are unfortunately, unscrupulous dealers who will try to sell different (i.e. more expensive) CD players, DACs, amps, cables, etc. claiming they will vastly improve the sound of speakers. Don't let that happen to you.

 

[markw]

I misspoke

you could, but neither of those speakers are large and the Totems are downright petite. You Since you're talking about both a receiverand an integrated amp, you could probably stack 'em and not waste any real estate.

What I meant to say here is that you can stack the speakers, not the receiver and amp. I don't recommend stacking electronics due to heat.

or...

you could, but neither of those speakers are large and the Totems are downright petite. Since you're talking about both a receiver and an integrated amp anyway, you could probably stack the speakers and not waste any real estate.

 

[sendcakeplease]

Ok, so now what about a subwoofer to pair with the Totem Dreamcatchers?

So I'm looking for a sub for music (movies too, but music is more important). Totem Dreamcatchers are going to be used with it. My budget is about $600 tops, but used is fine with me. I'm looking at these options, can anyone weigh in?

1. SVS PB10 - discontinued used for about $300
2. SVS PB/SB1000 - new, $500, maybe I could find a used one
2. Rythmik LV12R - $600

Does subwoofer technology increase rapidly enough that its worth paying the extra money for the newest model and getting the PB1000 over the PB10?

The PB1000 is ported, the SB1000 is sealed. My understanding is ported will have more punch for movies and such, and could be just as good as the sealed version for music? The enclosure on the ported version is larger, not sure if that matters either.

What about SVS vs. Rythmik? Are there others I should be considering in this price range? Should I check out HSU?

First and foremost I want it to be as tight and musical as it can be in this budget.

Thanks!!