Help me decide on new amp

[GIEGAR]

I typically listen to movies around -35 on the Yamaha. The speakers are roughly 10 feet from the listeners. I have had to increase the gain on each channel to appreciate detail. My subs are Hsu ULS-15 and Martin Logan Abyss 12 inch. I auditioned the Rotel 1585 and the detail was amazing. For about the same price, the Outlaw 7900 seems like a great deal considering the power output (and sale that ends 7/31). My center is formidable B and W diamond series but I feel the yamaha cannot provide the detail and clarity that my speakers are capable of.

Thanks for the info biswa002.

I'm not a Yamaha bloke, so I don't know... does YPAO calibrate the system to film (SMPTE/Dolby/THX) reference level? If so, -35dBMV (master volume) is not a particularly loud level; equating to theoretical program peaks at the main listening seat of about 70dBSPL for each channel. At 10ft (or about 3m) there'll be about 5dB attenuation with distance in a typical domestic room, so the speakers will need to be producing 75dBSPL peak at 1m distance. Your front speakers have sensitivities around 90dB/1W/1m, so on average will need less than 0.05W to produce a 75dBSPL peak.

What's the loudest you'd ever listen at? If you crank it up to -15dBMV, or subjectively louder by a factor of four (in the mid frequencies), the power required to produce theoretical peaks of about 95dBSPL (@ 1m) is still only 3W*; with average program levels in fractions of watts. Having said that, if you've bumped up your channel trims up, the power requirements will increase accordingly. If they're +3dB those power figures double; if it's +5dB the power figures roughly triple. Assuming I've interpreted your Yamaha's volume level correctly, at -15dBMV you're probably not calling for more than bursts of 10W maximum per front channel. Obviously, this power output is well within the capabilities of the Yamaha.

In terms of your speakers, they don't "know" if those 10W bursts are coming from a 30WPC amp or a 300WPC amp. If it's within the linear operating range of the amp it makes no real difference. The difference in sound that you experience (improved detail and clarity) can be due to several of factors, including listening at a slightly louder volume along with various subconscious biases that are inherent and unavoidable when having a sighted, casual "listening session" with a piece of audio equipment.

If you have $3K burning a hole in your pocket and your goal is a real, measurable improvement in sound quality, amps would be the last place I'd look. The real gold is in speakers and doing what you reasonably can to optimise their response in your room. A perfectly matched front three speakers would be priority one, either all Studios or all B&W's. Of course, you might just love the idea of a big beast of an amp ticking over at the front of your room, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

The reason I asked about your subs is because subs significantly reduce the power demands on the AVR by handling the power hungry lower frequencies. (Each octave you drop requires four times the displacement to maintain the same SPL.) In this case though, as the power demands are relatively low in comparison to the capability of the Yamaha's amps, the sub's contribution is quite academic.

* Use the "dB Power Ratio Calculator" at Crown Audio's site. (Sorry, the forum still thinks I could be a 'bot, so I can't post links yet.)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is it possible that ATI finally set up shops in China to manufacture amps for OEMs? It isn't that hard to do as there are so many electronic manufacturing facilities there.

I doubt it. ATI is extremely and adamantly proud of making amps for "MOST amp companies in North America". They are as anti-sourcing and pro-American as you can get. Each ATI amp should come with an American flag.

They could easily make amps for Outlaw right there in California using whatever it is to cut the cost a little. I bet Outlaw is just willing to cut a little profit to make money. That AT3007 may have an MSRP of $6K, but the actual dealer cost is probably under $3K.

The ATI also has a 7 YR warranty vs. 5 YR on Outlaw. So shave 2 YR warranty. Maybe shave a few other insignificant (inaudible) parts to lower the price a little. Shave the "brand name" of ATI. Shave some profits.

Speaking of warranty, I think ATI should offer extended warranty for a price. Extend from 7YR to 20YR for $1K. Give Bryston some warranty competition.

 

[cpp]

I doubt it. ATI is extremely and adamantly proud of making amps for "MOST amp companies in North America". They are as anti-sourcing and pro-American as you can get. Each ATI amp should come with an American flag.

They could easily make amps for Outlaw right there in California using whatever it is to cut the cost a little. I bet Outlaw is just willing to cut a little profit to make money. That AT3007 may have an MSRP of $6K, but the actual dealer cost is probably under $3K.

The ATI also has a 7 YR warranty vs. 5 YR on Outlaw. So shave 2 YR warranty. Maybe shave a few other insignificant (inaudible) parts to lower the price a little. Shave the "brand name" of ATI. Shave some profits.

Speaking of warranty, I think ATI should increase the price of the AT3007 from $6K to $8K and give people a 20YR warranty like Bryston.

Warranty does cost money.

Designed, Engineered an Assembled in the USA

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Designed, Engineered and Assembled in the USA

...and damn proud of it.

 

[Goliath]

Thanks for the info biswa002.

I'm not a Yamaha bloke, so I don't know... does YPAO calibrate the system to film (SMPTE/Dolby/THX) reference level? If so, -35dBMV (master volume) is not a particularly loud level; equating to theoretical program peaks at the main listening seat of about 70dBSPL for each channel. At 10ft (or about 3m) there'll be about 5dB attenuation with distance in a typical domestic room, so the speakers will need to be producing 75dBSPL peak at 1m distance. Your front speakers have sensitivities around 90dB/1W/1m, so on average will need less than 0.05W to produce a 75dBSPL peak.

What's the loudest you'd ever listen at? If you crank it up to -15dBMV, or subjectively louder by a factor of four (in the mid frequencies), the power required to produce theoretical peaks of about 95dBSPL (@ 1m) is still only 3W*; with average program levels in fractions of watts. Having said that, if you've bumped up your channel trims up, the power requirements will increase accordingly. If they're +3dB those power figures double; if it's +5dB the power figures roughly triple. Assuming I've interpreted your Yamaha's volume level correctly, at -15dBMV you're probably not calling for more than bursts of 10W maximum per front channel. Obviously, this power output is well within the capabilities of the Yamaha.

In terms of your speakers, they don't "know" if those 10W bursts are coming from a 30WPC amp or a 300WPC amp. If it's within the linear operating range of the amp it makes no real difference. The difference in sound that you experience (improved detail and clarity) can be due to several of factors, including listening at a slightly louder volume along with various subconscious biases that are inherent and unavoidable when having a sighted, casual "listening session" with a piece of audio equipment.

If you have $3K burning a hole in your pocket and your goal is a real, measurable improvement in sound quality, amps would be the last place I'd look. The real gold is in speakers and doing what you reasonably can to optimise their response in your room. A perfectly matched front three speakers would be priority one, either all Studios or all B&W's. Of course, you might just love the idea of a big beast of an amp ticking over at the front of your room, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

The reason I asked about your subs is because subs significantly reduce the power demands on the AVR by handling the power hungry lower frequencies. (Each octave you drop requires four times the displacement to maintain the same SPL.) In this case though, as the power demands are relatively low in comparison to the capability of the Yamaha's amps, the sub's contribution is quite academic.

* Use the "dB Power Ratio Calculator" at Crown Audio's site. (Sorry, the forum still thinks I could be a 'bot, so I can't post links yet.)

Excellent post. Welcome to the forums.

Do you post on AVSforum, by any chance?

 

[3db]

Excellent post. Welcome to the forums.

Do you post on AVSforum, by any chance?

Yes he does. I saw him

 

[Goliath]

Yes he does. I saw him

I was just wondering, because he sounds like me. He might just be ...

... me.

Just kidding.

 

[biswa002]

Did you audition the Rotel using your speakers and in your listening environment? Were RC facilities employed? Were the output levels matched? Its very difficult to accurately compare electronics when using different speakers in a different acoustic environment and output levels aren't matched. Auditory memory is poor at best and as Floyd Toole demonstrated and its accuracy is fleetingly short, minutes at best. A blind listening test where someone is toggling between the Yamaha and the Rotel is the only accurate way of assessing this properly.

I am not sure how the output levels were set up. The speakers were very smilar to my current setup. The detail was what really stood out from the blue ray recordings.

 

[biswa002]

At -35, conversation is audible but not by much.

 

[3db]

I am not sure how the output levels were set up. The speakers were very smilar to my current setup. The detail was what really stood out from the blue ray recordings.

I believe you but when making a comparison in electronics, one must make the environments the same as much as possible (including room acoustics and the source material like the blurays) to make a meaningful comparison.

 

[GIEGAR]

Excellent post. Welcome to the forums.

Do you post on AVSforum, by any chance?

Glad you liked it Goliath and thanks for the welcome.

Yes, I do post on AVS now and then. I've decided to broaden my horizons a bit and see what I can learn from the Audioholics.

Yes he does. I saw him

True. Most likely in the PSB owners thread.

 

[3db]

Glad you liked it Goliath and thanks for the welcome.

True. Most likely in the PSB owners thread.

Welcome aboard.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I also agree that the OP probably doesn't need an amp like most people. But if he just wants an amp like many of us, I don't see any reasons why he couldn't get perhaps a 2Ch amp for the main front.

What is the power rating of the speakers?

 

[herbu]

I also agree that the OP probably doesn't need an amp like most people. But if he just wants an amp like many of us, I don't see any reasons why he couldn't get perhaps a 2Ch amp for the main front.

Absolutely agree! Just want to be sure he doesn't expect to actually hear any difference at -35dB levels. But I can tell you the 5 LEDs on my amp look really cool as they sequence during power up!

 

[cpp]

I am not sure how the output levels were set up. The speakers were very smilar to my current setup. The detail was what really stood out from the blue ray recordings.

Is there any way you can get that Rotel to your home for an in-home demo to see if it works with your room and speakers ?

I did this changing of the AVR and external amp thing and like others have noted, don't expect to hear any sonic difference if that's what your after. I found that by changing my room around and re-positioning the speakers and subs things started to sound good, really good. Sure I have extra watts for my L/R speakers but I could never hear the big difference in sonic quality.

 

[GIEGAR]

I also agree that the OP probably doesn't need an amp like most people. But if he just wants an amp like many of us, I don't see any reasons why he couldn't get perhaps a 2Ch amp for the main front.

What is the power rating of the speakers?

The mains are Paradigm Studio 60's. Paradigm's product page for the current Studio 60's says:

Suitable Amplifier Power Range ....... 15 - 220 watts
Maximum Input Power ....... 170 watts

The B&W centre channel looks particularly capable.

www{dot}hifiexpert{dot}eu/media/pdf/HTM2_Diamond_Info_Sheet.pdf

Recommended amplifier power ....... 50W - 300W into 8Ω on unclipped programme

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But I can tell you the 5 LEDs on my amp look really cool as they sequence during power up!

Out of control, man. Out of control.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The mains are Paradigm Studio 60's. Paradigm's product page for the current Studio 60's says: Maximum Input Power ....... 170 watts...

If the max power rating is only 170W, I personally would not use a 300WPC amp.

I think the conservatively rated ATI AT1802 ($1,121 Classic Audio Parts) would be a good amp if he just DESIRES a high-end external amp. Even the 60WPC ATI amp is stable down to 1 ohm (The Audio Critic Power Cube).

ATI AT1802 Two Channel x 180 Watt Amplifier - B-Stock (120V) - Amplifiers

Again, this is just to sate his appetite for an external amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The B&W centre channel looks particularly capable.
Recommended amplifier power ....... 50W - 300W into 8Ω on unclipped program...

I like how B&W says "unclipped" power.

If 150W of power output is clipped, then resulting 300W of clipped power will be sent to the speakers.

If 300W of power output is clipped, then the resulting 600W of clipped power will be sent to the speakers.

The clipping part in itself does NOTHING to damage the speakers. It is the 300W or 600W of power (clipped or unclipped) that could damage the speakers.

So I guess in this case, you better hope the 300W amp doesn't clip due to any reason or the speaker will get 600W. But if you use a 150W amp, even if it clipped, the speaker will get 300W. But I guess the idea is that the 300W amp won't clip in the first place. Unless there is some malfunction that causes the distortion/clipping.

 

[biswa002]

That's a good idea to trial the Rotel in my theater