Suggestion on a DAC

[HEPD85]

Hello everyone, I'm looking to get a new DAC, I was aiming for the Benchmark DAC2. But I don't use DSD much at all and it doesn't look like it'll receive widespread use, of course that's always fickle...Anyways What's everyone's opinion of a good neutral PCM only DAC? My only requirement is that it accepts 24/192 over USB. Of course Emotiva DC-1 has been getting pretty good reviews, but what are my other choices? I'd like to spend less than $1600. Thanks a lot for everyone's opinions.

 

[ImcLoud]

I would NEVER spend that kind of money on a dac, them days are over, the emo xda2 works well I like mine, the audioengine d1 works great {I have a couple of them}, mD has some good deals lately
WADIA 151 POWERDAC MINI at Music Direct or demo WADIA 151PowerDAC Mini BLACK **DEMO** at Music Direct
PEACHTREE NOVA PREAMP & DAC at Music Direct
AUDIO ELECTRONICS LIGHTNING DAC at Music Direct
MUSICAL FIDELITY M1 DAC A BLACK **DEMO** at Music Direct
SIMAUDIO MOON 100D DAC (BLACK) **DEMO** at Music Direct
PS AUDIO NUWAVE DAC (BLACK) **DEMO** at Music Direct

Plus more, the wadia is a nice unit for $450, a friend of mine has the music fidelity dac {with a couple of the mathcing mono blocks, the m1clic controller, and the cd player} and it seems really nice too... But I personally wouldn't spend more than $300 for a dac... considering you can get them as cheap as $30 now...

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Lets start with - Why? Why do you feel you need a external DAC? To improve existing sound quality? If so - you better already have at-least $50k in speakers before it would make (some) sense to invest $1600 on external DAC

 

[HEPD85]

Really? I HAVE to accumulate the wealth to be able to throw FIFTY GRAND into speakers before I can sensibly research the purchase of a $1600 DAC? Really?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Really? I HAVE to accumulate the wealth to be able to throw FIFTY GRAND into speakers before I can sensibly research the purchase of a $1600 DAC? Really?

a) To invest in speakers , not "throw"

b) words like "sensibly" and $1600 external dac don't normally belong in same sentence

c) I am not suggesting to buy 50k speakers, but in 99.99999999999999% of cases ether DAC in AVR or lets go crazy here DAC in separate pre-pro / amp combo is WAY more than sufficient.

d) If you DO really want to improve your sound system for about $2000 - lets start from scratch and do list what components you already have or if this is a blank slate, what is the total budget for the system?

 

[ImcLoud]

You can spend your money on what ever you like, if you want a better dac that isn't the worse idea I ever heard anyone have, BUT you don't have to spend $1600, did you check out the units from music direct?
I use the xda2 and use it as a preamp so my pc or dock plug into the dac and the dac directly into my amp and subs... I like to keep the signal path as short as I can which may or may not help sound quality but it makes me feel better so I do it... I don't like using an avr for stereo listening but others do, and it sounds great either way...

I think what BSA is getting at is, there MAY be much better places to put your money than a $1600 dac, like in your sock drawer or in a swamp land purchase... You can get a phenominol dac for under $500... BSA's point is if you have a $60 amplifier and a pair of white van speakers a dac isn't going to help you, I jumped to the conclusion that you must have some decent gear if you are looking for a $1500+ dac, I am honestly picturing a pair of sonus faber Cremonas with a pair of rel r528 subs and maybe a Krell s-550i i-amp, if I got any of that rite, I am going to play the powerball rite now... A good friend of mine just bought that exact system and it sounds soooo good.... Except he has a turntable , while that isnt $50K I think spending $500 on a dac in that system would be warranted, for the amp speakers and subs he spent the better part of 15K so what is another $500..

Anyway check out the dac's I listed, let us know what you like and dislike and we can go from there, I am curious as to what you have for gear too now? Not that it matters to me, if you want to put $5K speaker wires on a pair of Klipsch synergys thats your business I can tell you where to find some $5K speaker wires and would love to see a picture of the end result...

 

[jinjuku]

Really? I HAVE to accumulate the wealth to be able to throw FIFTY GRAND into speakers before I can sensibly research the purchase of a $1600 DAC? Really?

You don't have to spend $50K on speakers. But I think it's more than reasonable to ask what your current setup consists of.

There is another recent member here (ematthews) that has just experienced a 180 degree journey. Early on in his rapid acquisition of electronics and the electronic roulette he was going through had me asking him the same question I would ask anyone looking to spend that much on an electronic component:

What speakers do you have and are you happy with them? At the time I half jokingly / half seriously suggested he take a pause in all of it and consider selling his entire setup (electronics and speakers) and taking the subsequent $$ and investing ~75% or better into up the chain speakers.

You can reach out to him and ask him how it turned out now that he did it.

I'm driving a pair of DIY Statements($900) with a $399 pro-audio amp and $185 E-MU sound card. I would put this up against anybodies $1600 DAC, $3000 amp and $5400 set of speakers any day of the week and based on my experience so far with B&W and Aerial Acoustics be well assured I have a significantly higher resolution and better sounding setup.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Are you looking to use this DAC as a pre-amp, or is it just for use as a DAC?

 

[HEPD85]

Finally, people who are actually trying to be helpful, first let me thank all of you. Well I want this future DAC to be a pre-amp, but something future proof as well. At first I didn't think DSD/DXD capabilities would be too important, but I would also very much like to have the option. I'm currently driving a set of Verus Grand Tower from a Denon X2000, I can't say I'm completely satisfied with it. So I'm looking at either a Mytek Stereo 192 or a Benchmark DAC2. I'm looking to get a D-Sonic M3 800S as the amp. It just didn't feel right to have a surround Denon driving a semi serious 2 channel system.

Cloud, I was interested in the Peachtree NovaPre, but I'd also like the option to go fully balanced, seeing as my amp is gonna be balanced...

 

[jinjuku]

Given your speakers and the electronics you are looking at I would urge you, if you can, to sell the speakers, reformulate your budget and get better speakers and spend less on the electronics.

24/96 and 24/192 will certainly give DSD a run for it's money. I haven't found anything to make DSD the king of the hill. Honestly if you don't have speakers or electronics that can produce frequency into the 44-50Khz range it's going to be a filter anyways for the higher resolution stuff.

You are talking about $3K in electronics to drive $2K worth of speaker. If you can/could I would tell you to get $4K worth of speaker. Use the leftover for electronics.

I would tell you to get the Emotiva DC-1 Stealth DAC and either the Crown XLS 1500 or Yamaha PS2500S amp. Look at something like the Philharmonic Audio 3 ML-TL for $3500.

I would be willing to bet the Verus Grand's driven with any electronics combo, regardless of price, would'nt stand toe to toe.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Dear HEPD,
I would try to be helpful as I can - you can disregard my advance and waste more money in electronics or listen to me:
If you not 100% sattistfied with your current audio - there are few things which you could do for free , yes FREE.

A) Your speakers are rear ported - you need to leave plenty of room behind them away from the wall - preferably 2 ft or so

B) re-run your Denon Auto-setup with included Mic according to this very helpful guide (do register and download the word file) - "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 191 - AVS Forum

c) also try to run it in Pure-Stereo mode


d) If all fails you may need new speakers - I would highly recommend Ascend Towers, SVS Ultra towers and Philharmonic Audio - they are not cheap, but in my option your existing Denon X2000 is already pretty good as pre-pro/amp.


Edit: Jim beat me by few mins - I agree with him 100%

 

[HEPD85]

Given your speakers and the electronics you are looking at I would urge you, if you can, to sell the speakers, reformulate your budget and get better speakers and spend less on the electronics.

24/96 and 24/192 will certainly give DSD a run for it's money. I haven't found anything to make DSD the king of the hill. Honestly if you don't have speakers or electronics that can produce frequency into the 44-50Khz range it's going to be a filter anyways for the higher resolution stuff.

You are talking about $3K in electronics to drive $2K worth of speaker. If you can/could I would tell you to get $4K worth of speaker. Use the leftover for electronics.

I would tell you to get the Emotiva DC-1 Stealth DAC and either the Crown XLS 1500 or Yamaha PS2500S amp. Look at something like the Philharmonic Audio 3 ML-TL for $3500.

I would be willing to bet the Verus Grand's driven with any electronics combo, regardless of price, would'nt stand toe to toe.

I'm sure you're right about that, but it just seems to me that it's much easier to upgrade the electronics first, and get a system I'm happy with and won't need an upgrade until technology renders them obsolete, and then worry about speakers. From what I can tell reading all over the internet about this hobby, it seems easier to get a great sounding set of electronics that are competent (or at least good enough to require enormously more expensive replacements to achieve better sound quality) than it is to do the same with speakers as they are harder to allocate space for and more expensive to get to the top tier. After all I could spend between 2000-3000 on a dac and have something that's gonna sound almost as good as the best ones available at the time, and I will get nowhere near that if the same money were to be spent on speakers...

 

[rojo]

First world problems.

Hep D, it might help you to get a measurement mic and quantify what you are hearing. It could be that the improvement you are seeking would be more appropriately addressed with some corner bass traps and first reflection acoustic panels, or by rearranging your room. That's an awfully expensive guess you're making. And I have no doubt that if you do spend a grand and a half on a dac, you'll love it, simply because you'll want to love it. You'll convince yourself that you hear the improvements you expect to hear, even if there are no measurable improvements.

Bah. Somebody search for that "Do I need a DAC" article for me. I'm too lazy.

Edit: http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/dac-do-you-need-an-external-digital-to-analog-converter

 

[agarwalro]

Let me try with a race car analogy. If you follow racing you know that all else being equal, tires make a huge difference. If not, just know that paved track where grip is maximized (as opposed to rally or off road) races are won or lost mostly by tire ware management.

Lap time is sound quality
Tire is speaker
Engine mapping aka "tune" is electronics, here DAC

You keep saying that your engine needs a better tune/upgrade, when we keep telling you that your tires need changed. If you cars tires stay the same but you keep getting incrementally better engine maps, your lap time will not improve.

Your logic regarding buying the best possible electronics and then focusing on speakers is fundamentally flawed. The reason is the electronics will make a marginal improvement in sound quality, but, better speakers or better room acoustics can make a night and day difference.

The rule of thumb regarding budget is, 70% speakers 30% electronics (audio related only, so receiver/amp+pre-pro, media players, etc). Look at my example, speakers+subs were $3850 and receiver was $950. So, the receiver makes up only 25% of the overall budget on the audio side. Eventually, I see myself adding the matching towers and center. So, the percentage will drop further, so I might add an amp for the LCR speaker. Then I'll add 2 more subs. Then only I'll look into upgrading the receiver.

 

[HEPD85]

Thanks a lot for the sage advise guys, I guess my research continues When I was looking to buy my Grand Towers I was looking at Ascend speakers too, I've always thought they were roughly equals, both being giant killers in their own way. If I were to upgrade speakers, I think Tekton's Pendragon is my next speaker investment.

A quick question about room treatment, my listening area is a lot wider than it is long, with bookshelves behind me, the width being about 16 feet, where should I start in terms of acoustic treatment?

 

[ImcLoud]

If this is just for music playback, I would attack it a different way buy a center for the aperions and an affordable subwoofer and turn that system into a decent HT setup.. Then build a nice system just for music...

A decent set of bookshelfs and a nice pair of subs with a simple short path dac/amp setup...
FOCAL PROFILE 908 DIAMOND BLACK (PR) at Music Direct
Dual SB12-NSD
this bundle MUSICAL FIDELITY M1 SDAC & M1 PWR BUNDLE at Music Direct
1 more of these amps MUSICAL FIDELITY M1PWR POWER AMP at Music Direct
1 of these MiniDSP 2x4 | MiniDSP

So that will cost you just a few hundred bucks more than the focal bookshelfs MSRP and you get an entire 2.2 system, I have experience with the 908's and they play very very well, they are also really easy to place in a room and very forgiving... And having subs vs towers is giong to do many things for your system, it will give you a better range {subs play lower than any tower I have heard}, it will allow you cross your bookshelfs so they only get say 85hz and above, since the lows hz are the more difficult freqs to reproduce {power wise} your main amps will not need to be large at all, the m1's put out 100w at 8ohms bridged mono which will be plenty to match the svs internal sub amps, having two subs will even out the room response, the mini dsp will handle all of your sub integration, it will be an all around impressive system...

Keep in mind the non sale prices of this gear, if you bought it a few months back you would be over $9000, I own one of the m1 amps {they are very nice}, I own a pair of the svs subs {one of my favorite sealed subs}, My brother owns the focal books with a matching center {very musical bookshelf}, and I have played with that dac preamp in my local shop... ALL REALLY NICE GEAR...

So keep it in mind, buy once cry one, sell or turn your gear into a nice HT system and start fresh with something impressive rite out of the box... Ill bet if you called musicdirect and told them you were buying the 908's, an m1 bundle and another m1 amp they would cut you a deal, and then Ill bet SVS will knock off another $75 off the price of the sb12's in piano black, since they are trying to sell them off... I am thinking you get that entire system for around $3500 think about it, thats not much more than you are prepared to spend on a dac.... And you will have a mono block powered{no cross talk, if it were an issue}, 2.2 system with dsp controlled crossing, and a pretty short signal path, that will be really forgiving to things like room acoustics and speaker placement, plus be capable of some pretty impressive output, the 908's are around 88db I believe so with 100w each and crossed around 70-90hz they will be able to get loud, plus add in the fact that you would have 1600 dynamic watts of subwoofer with it this system will shame your current towers in all aspects....

PS with them subs the mini dsp wouldn't be mandatory, the subs have an internal 80hz high pass output set of rca's that you can use to feed your main amps, it works well but the mini dsp would give you adjustments, although you will most likely end up crossing at 80, so I would be on the fence about spending the extra 100 on a dsp...

 

[PENG]

Thanks a lot for the sage advise guys, I guess my research continues When I was looking to buy my Grand Towers I was looking at Ascend speakers too, I've always thought they were roughly equals, both being giant killers in their own way. If I were to upgrade speakers, I think Tekton's Pendragon is my next speaker investment.

A quick question about room treatment, my listening area is a lot wider than it is long, with bookshelves behind me, the width being about 16 feet, where should I start in terms of acoustic treatment?

From my experience with the speakers on the long wall, your sitting position could be most critical for the best bass response. It could be so obvious that even without a sound meter you can tell the bass get better or worse by simply moving towards or away from speakers a few inches. Try that first and you may get motivated to do more.

I think your logic is very understandable but only because we are human who won't, don't or can't make a real logic choice though we could program computers to do it for us. Even then we might just ignore their output. Yes it is less costly and much easier to upgrade electronics first, well except if you are one of those die hard believer of electronics have their own sound signature (surely some do as they are always exceptions to the rule), in that case you will be back here a few time before you finally swap out your last choice with something your brain tells you sound the best to "you". Still, the logic has it flaws mostly because you will end up spending a lot of money to get mostly placebo effect in return, but it also has merits (being a normal person).

You could spend the budgeted 1.6K now to upgrade your current speakers to one that is in top condition but used, something that retailed for say original price of 3K. That would get you to the flag ship Ascend tower or Phil 3. PM ADTG for help and he may just tell you how much he sold his Phil 3, KEF 201/2 for, just to get an idea. If you sell your current speakers, plus the 1.6K, that may be enough to get a pair of new Ascend tower. You may or may not need a subwoofer depending on your room and personal preference.

Then you can continue your research on what you really are really to spend to get your system within a time frame that only you know. The Ascend towers can be sold easily or moved to another room etc. So after spending the money on better speakers, the only thing you would miss is a perceived better sound from a 1,600 DAC. I have not listened to one like that but I can tell you if you blind me I won't be able to tell the difference between DACs, AVP, Universal player such as the Oppo 105 from $199 to $3,599. If sighted, yes I would rank among those the Oppo 105 and the Fiio X5 (399) top. So the X5 was a nice surprise for me but I accepted it.

Again, there is benefit in a well designed/made DAC with/without preamp capability but you can spend on better speakers now to get more audible benefits such no one will challenge you with the horrific SBT or DBT words, then go from there after re-assessing your priorities and choices. Otherwise you can "easily" spend on DAC now, then you have wonder about your preamp, prepro, power amp too. If you believe in DACs making enough difference why not amps right.. It may be a long time before you could benefit from the easily audible SQ improvements by speakers and playing with room acoustic effects and/or speaker placements.

 

[jinjuku]

I'm sure you're right about that, but it just seems to me that it's much easier to upgrade the electronics first, and get a system I'm happy with and won't need an upgrade until technology renders them obsolete

There are a couple of ways to look at this:

The Emotiva DC-1 is a 24/192 DAC with a stepped ladder, dual monoral, analog volume, fully differential DAC. They are using well understood high end engineering concepts on this DAC. So the question to ask is: when does 24/192 become obsolete? It's like asking when 32 bit color space is going to become obsolete. The answer is never. TV manufactures aren't going to increase the color bit depth ever again.

On something like the Yamaha P2500S. It's not the end all be all but they rate their Frequency Response ruler flat past 40Khz. So the question to ask is: When do you need frequency extension past 40Khz? The answer is never. All it's other specifications are well in order also.

You have about $15,000 - $20,000 in speakers to go before you really need to consider upgrading the electronics stack.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hello everyone, I'm looking to get a new DAC, I was aiming for the Benchmark DAC2. But I don't use DSD much at all and it doesn't look like it'll receive widespread use, of course that's always fickle...Anyways What's everyone's opinion of a good neutral PCM only DAC? My only requirement is that it accepts 24/192 over USB. Of course Emotiva DC-1 has been getting pretty good reviews, but what are my other choices? I'd like to spend less than $1600. Thanks a lot for everyone's opinions.

I think the DAC inside the AVR or pre-pro sound as good as any external DAC.

 

[ImcLoud]

I think the DAC inside the AVR or pre-pro sound as good as any external DAC.

you must not be enlightened because that just doesn't make sense, why would companies sell them for thousands of dollars if they didnt sound BETTER? What are you going to say next? That Audioquest K2's or everests sound the same as Blue jeans cables for $19,589 less? Lunacy.....