Newbie with a dedicated 7.1 room needs scrutiny and suggestions please.

[process]

Hello Experts and all,

First, I am a big fan of the site and the service y'all provide the public. I have been working on this theater a little at a time forever and need to finish it. My wife *****es about the sound coming through the floor or up the stairs to the den so I need to put up the drywall and door to help with that. The rock-wool helped some. Although, I could use some advice first. I copied some of the questions from a previous Newbie post and did my best to describe my current situation. I am look at this AV room as a long term hobby like most here. Just learning as I go. We have a Bose Lifestyle 35 upstairs I am sort of competing with that in my theater cave. So with that let me answer the normal questions below.

Room size and layout?

Total 4 straight walls 17'-25'
Listening area is 17'x17'
Ceiling is 9' in center with a soffitt 1' H and 2' w around the 17x17 square.
Area behind the square will be a sink, few cabinets, card table, computer, desk and bar. (not concerned with direct sound in this area, it will get plenty indirect.
Presently there is no drywall, the room is just studs, insulation, speaker wire, hdmi's, lots of electrical outlets and a stapled blackout cloth screen.


Projector/screen?
On the opposite wall of the sink/bar area is the front wall with a 110" diy screen with BENQ 1080P 3D projector.


What is the Seating distance?
It is comfortable anywhere from 8.5' to 15.5'. The money spot is about 10' centered

Dedicated room with 4 walls and 1 double door?

Yes a dedicated room with no window and I have not bought a door yet, but left a 40"w opening 8'h at the center right side almost center of the 25' top of the 17x17 square.

Existing AVR: HK 2600 65w 7.1, clean some power, but no pre-outs. Was offered 200 bucks for it but not selling until I figure all this out.
Existing Power Amp Yamaha M-50 perfectly fine, but sitting in closet due to no pre-outs on reciever.

Existing speakers: Jamo S 426 HCS 3 WENGE 5-Piece they are 6ohms and take up too much space and this AVR seems to need 8ohms. I have a 3 yr old child so I need all equipment off the ground or under lock and key, no stands and no floor towers. The Jamos were a cheap temp solution and served their purpose.
Selling them.


Existing sub: JBL SUB-150 Selling it.


New Surrounds

Uninstalled 4 surrounds are some EAS-6W In-Wall/In-Ceiling Speakers.
I was thinking of putting 2 of these in the wall to the side and two in the soffitt behind me facing down or out for the rears. I choose these because of the adjustable tweeter to aim from the soffitt and I got a fair deal.

Specs:
Impedance 8 ohms
Frequency Response 55Hz - 20Khz +/-3dB
Power Handling 100 Watts
Sensitivity 89dB
Tweeter 1" (25.4mm) Aluminum Dome
Mounting Depth 3.25" (82.55mm)
Dimensions 12.12" (30.8cm) H x 8.7" (22.1cm) W x 3.5" (8.9cm) D
Woofer 6.5" (16.5cm) Mica Filled Composite woofers w/ NBR/SBR surround
Crossover Point 2.2 kHz

My questions are:

Can someone make any suggestions for a matching front wall? A sub? And any last ideas for my theater room in general. I am trying to minimize mistakes and leave room to upgrade to a new receiver with pre-outs maybe next year.

Also, I have read to go with bookshelf speakers on stands instead of in-walls or on-walls because of cost and sound. But, I can't use stands. I thought about building out the front wall to 13' deep. Then I could have 3 cavities that I could place the speakers on. Of course I read that I would need front ported speakers to go into the recessed shelf. Will these sound good or should I may as well install in-wall if I am not going to use stands?

Things I need now are the LCR, sub, real screen.

These are some of the speaker models I was looking.


Looking At these for R and L:

Definitive Technology Studio Monitor 65 Bookshelf

Klipsch RB 61 Main Stereo Speakers

Definitive Technology Mythos XTR 60 on Wall Speakers 1 Pair Barely Used

KEF Q100 Speakers Black

Paradigm Studio 20 V 2 Mint Pair in Factory Boxes


So please fire away and you won't hurt my feelings making me aware of my screw-ups.

Don't know anything about subs or center? Thank you for your recommendations in all areas.

Regards,

CLC

 

[lsiberian]

Your best bet is to completely decouple the home theater room from the rest of the structure.

This video does a great job of giving you a break down while keeping things simple.
[video=youtube;YbWXHUKHJIs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbWXHUKHJIs[/video]

 

[rojo]

Process, that was a rookie post done right. Thanks for giving us the appropriate information up front! All that's missing is a picture or two.

Whether you choose to build alcoves for your LCR or use wall mount brackets, you probably ought to concentrate your search on front ported speakers. The HTD Level Twos would be a good example. This is definitely better than in-walls. I think speaker brackets would be preferable to an alcove, though. To get the best sound from your front stage, the speakers' tweeters ought to be pointing directly at the listeners' ear level. Brackets would allow for angling down a bit, so you can mount them higher; whereas a toddler will probably not have much difficulty poking speakers in alcoves at seating level height.

Another initial thought was that a down-firing subwoofer might save you from having to scream at your younglings when they venture too close to the driver. The Outlaw LFM-1 EX would be a good choice. Two would be even better if your budget allows, but you ought to plan to get a receiver capable of individually correcting each -- the Denon AVR-X4000 for example.

Ultimately, these considerations are a feeble substitute for active parenting though. I've got my bookshelfs on speaker stands, and my 2-year-old daughter knows not to run or play near them. When she needs reminded, I gently remind her. But since I'm always there when she is, I don't worry that she'll pull a speaker over.

Before we continue, are you more interested in movie performance or music? Do you have a budget in mind?

 

[agarwalro]

Even though the "listening area" is 17x17ft. the acoustics will be that of a 17x25ft. From this standpoint, 10ft from the front wall is indeed the money spot (38% of length). That also means, you will need major subwoofers to do justice to the movie LFE tracks.

Wall mounting LCR is a major detriment to the sound. There is a recent thread on the topic of in-wall vs free standing speakers. +1 to what Rojo said regarding active parenting, easier said than done, therefore said.

An alternative would be to hide the LCR and a boat load of subs and and tons of bass traps behind an acoustically transparent screen that blocks of the front stage. You'll have to build a frame 3-4ft out from the front wall and it will be as if that is the true wall. Something like this,

 

[process]

Isiberian, thank you for the reply. That is a great video and I do have the Rocksul and Spray Foam around the rim joist. in the ceiling as they call it at the supply house. Sound doesn't carry well in the poured concrete walls I wouldn't think. So on the two poured walls I lined them with dow styrofoam sheathing, tyvek tape, going to fill gaps with r-13. On the other walls I use the Rocksul. Do you think that decoupling only works if all steps are taken. I didn't use industrial grade electrical housings for example. I was planing on trying to decouple at least the ceiling with the channels. Also reading about the Green Glue as an option. I don't want to blow a fortune on soundproofing so far I have about a 700 in the insulation. I will take some pictures and post. Worst case scenario is I get it done and test before paint. If she still *****es I'll ask her to buy another round of drywall. lol Regards

 

[process]

Process, that was a rookie post done right. Thanks for giving us the appropriate information up front! All that's missing is a picture or two.

Whether you choose to build alcoves for your LCR or use wall mount brackets, you probably ought to concentrate your search on front ported speakers. The HTD Level Twos would be a good example. This is definitely better than in-walls. I think speaker brackets would be preferable to an alcove, though. To get the best sound from your front stage, the speakers' tweeters ought to be pointing directly at the listeners' ear level. Brackets would allow for angling down a bit, so you can mount them higher; whereas a toddler will probably not have much difficulty poking speakers in alcoves at seating level height.

Another initial thought was that a down-firing subwoofer might save you from having to scream at your younglings when they venture too close to the driver. The Outlaw LFM-1 EX would be a good choice. Two would be even better if your budget allows, but you ought to plan to get a receiver capable of individually correcting each -- the Denon AVR-X4000 for example.

Ultimately, these considerations are a feeble substitute for active parenting though. I've got my bookshelfs on speaker stands, and my 2-year-old daughter knows not to run or play near them. When she needs reminded, I gently remind her. But since I'm always there when she is, I don't worry that she'll pull a speaker over.

Before we continue, are you more interested in movie performance or music? Do you have a budget in mind?

Rojo or Red,

Thanks for the reply.
I am planning to post a couple of photos today. Further, we enjoy 80%-20% movies to music in this room.

The brackets would be simpler but I thought that putting screws into some nice speakers might not be a good idea. Would you have a photo or a link to the type of brackets you are referring to? The down firing sub will be a must and I will look at those. Since I know at some point I will have to upgrade to something like the X4000 that can trim subs, would it be wiser to look at getting a small sub and add another small sub later. Let's say like two down firing 8"s on each side of the room?

Active parenting: Although, I am an active parent. I prefer to hid my OCD by not having too many rules. It is not that she disobeys, but we are all curious, balls bounce, and she gets excited when we put on Chitty Chitty Bang Bang in BD, mistakes can happen. I also don't want her to have to worry about Dad's expensive speakers getting knocked over. She enjoys the system as much as I do, so I am trying to avoid it being down for repairs if possible. Further, it isn't just her. It only takes one missed dance step at the Thanksgiving after-party by a 55 year old Uncle John or Aunt Harriet and oops. The alcoves seem to be a thumbs down.

How much better can the sound be on stands compared to brackets? If stands are that important, maybe I could build some out of heavy concrete or steel and use Industrial Velcro on the speaker base. Those could be interesting or fugly.

How far away from your wall are your bookshelf/stands sitting? Regards

 

[rojo]

Rojo or Red,

Thanks for the reply.
I am planning to post a couple of photos today. Further, we enjoy 80%-20% movies to music in this room.

The brackets would be simpler but I thought that putting screws into some nice speakers might not be a good idea. Would you have a photo or a link to the type of brackets you are referring to?

Some bookshelf speakers, like these Ascend CBM-170, already have rear threading to accept universal mount brackets such as the Omnimount 20.0.

The HTD Level Twos I mentioned earlier are similarly threaded, but I can't find any pics of the backs right now. These BR-TPR brackets are what HTD recommends for their bookshelfs and center channels. For speakers that don't have threads or a keyhole mount plate, you can get side-clamping wall-mounts like these VideoSecu brackets.

The down firing sub will be a must and I will look at those. Since I know at some point I will have to upgrade to something like the X4000 that can trim subs, would it be wiser to look at getting a small sub and add another small sub later. Let's say like two down firing 8"s on each side of the room?

Better to get one grown-up sub than a pair of toys. You can add a second grown-up sub later if you need to even out the bass response in your room and enlarge the sweet spot. I still recommend the Outlaw LFM-1 EX. If that is out of your price range, then a pair of these Acoustic Audio closeouts might be decent. Although bulkier and not as well braced / tuned / capable as the Outlaw, the raw size of 15" drivers ought to be sufficient to pressurize your room thoroughly. Just beware that your poker buddies might accuse you of trying to compensate for other shortcomings. Nevertheless, they are inexpensive, and ought to be pretty easy to resell without too much of a loss on Craigslist if you change your mind later. In any case, don't get 8" subs.

Active parenting: Although, I am an active parent. I prefer to hid my OCD by not having too many rules. It is not that she disobeys, but we are all curious, balls bounce, and she gets excited when we put on Chitty Chitty Bang Bang in BD, mistakes can happen. I also don't want her to have to worry about Dad's expensive speakers getting knocked over. She enjoys the system as much as I do, so I am trying to avoid it being down for repairs if possible. Further, it isn't just her. It only takes one missed dance step at the Thanksgiving after-party by a 55 year old Uncle John or Aunt Harriet and oops. The alcoves seem to be a thumbs down.

Point conceded. Your logic is sound.

How much better can the sound be on stands compared to brackets? If stands are that important, maybe I could build some out of heavy concrete or steel and use Industrial Velcro on the speaker base. Those could be interesting or fugly.

Not sure. I don't have much experience with wall mount speakers, other than with disposable HTIB satellites and bipolar surrounds. I'll defer to agarwalro's explanation on this. I wouldn't think the difference would be that profound if the speakers are front-ported.

How far away from your wall are your bookshelf/stands sitting? Regards

My bookshelfs are about 2 feet from the wall.

 

[jostenmeat]

I only sort of skimmed the thread, so please forgive any lack of misunderstanding on my part.

My opinion is to do it right, and go with the false wall as previously advised. That is great that you built your screen; assuming it is framed, it would be easy to change the fabric out for AT material. I love my Seymour XD, however at 10', you very well might see just a tad bit of texture. I don't know if smoother textures such as Screen Excellence can be bought as fabric only, it's doubtful to me. Therefore, I'd see if you can have money spot just a touch further, and/or get samples to test yourself.

You would obtain:
hidden speakers
identical speakers for perfect match
dialogue locked into the center of the screen, literally
all speakers on the same plane for best panning effects and soundstage
vertical orientation of center speaker drivers, the way it was meant to be, for best horizontal dispersion of the most important speaker

I'm sure there's more.

If you're still thinking about "cutouts", you might want to look into baffle step compensation considerations; better speakers are designed with this in mind. In wall speakers do not have this designed into them, as the baffle is now "infinite".

And I've seen a reputable speaker designer say, what's the big deal, go ahead and use screws in the speakers! I mean, that would be anathema to me as well, but I could get over it if it was a setup I was going to keep for a long time and that it provided me the best performance compromise possible.

Anyway, a false wall is cheap and easy. I used cheap speaker cloth from Joanne's to cover it all up. You want the area behind it to be dark. When you put it up, plumb is even more important than level, at least that was what I was taught. Cheap 2x4s.

Make sure to install conduit for easy wiring in the future, and easy add ons.

Check out Ooks for hanging acoustic panels, can be found at Home Depot, Amazon, Bed Bath Beyond, etc.

 

[process]

Even though the "listening area" is 17x17ft. the acoustics will be that of a 17x25ft. From this standpoint, 10ft from the front wall is indeed the money spot (38% of length). That also means, you will need major subwoofers to do justice to the movie LFE tracks.



Wall mounting LCR is a major detriment to the sound. There is a recent thread on the topic of in-wall vs free standing speakers. +1 to what Rojo said regarding active parenting, easier said than done, therefore said.

An alternative would be to hide the LCR and a boat load of subs and and tons of bass traps behind an acoustically transparent screen that blocks of the front stage. You'll have to build a frame 3-4ft out from the front wall and it will be as if that is the true wall. Something like this,




Argo,

First, thanks for your reply.

Certainly, by now one would think that speaker box materials and design of forward ports, etc. would allow for closer to the wall placement. If not on wall. I can understand with older speakers.

I do really like your idea of the AT wall allowing one to use any type, size or age of speakers. Maybe could go with a 120" screen with this wall. Also this would eliminate issues such as speakers getting knocked over, brand vanity, visual attractiveness of speakers etc. lol

But how do you come up with the minimum distance that one would have to build the wall out? why 3 or 4ft?

And what kind of AT material would match best with the BenQ w1070? I must say it looks awesome on just cheap stapled up blackout cloth.
Regards

 

[process]

Friends of this thread:

When budget is an issue. My budget at least. What is a budget anyways? I am a tight a$$ that likes all the good stuff. I don't mind buying second hand equipment that has been cared for. I would sell my equipment to a presentable buyer with a short warranty. I buy some high end stuff new but usually last years items and something that holds it's value fairly well. To buy new, I have to be, "in love with it, in fear I might need the warranty or plan on keeping it a long long time." The later almost never occurs.

I forget that I am talking with experts who have been at this hobby/obsession for many moons and, who have very discerning ears. Being new and not quite as critical when it come to small improvements at this point. Although, I don't want to make any stupid mistakes that will cost me more in the long run.

I know I can build a 90% or higher perfect room if I am willing to drop the cash with your recommendations. But, I have swing-sets, swimming and dance lessons to buy as well. So I am looking for suggestions that might make an approximate 25% to 35% at least if not higher improvement/difference to warrant the cost. That is for anything that can be easily upgraded in the future. Most all on here I would think want the new or highest end theaters eventually.

For example, not having a truly trained audiophile ear I probably wouldn't notice the difference in Vandersteens vs middle of the road PSB's behind an acoustically transparent wall that were pushed by a good quality receiver or a decent set of separates. I think at that point one is investing in nearly the best of the best and that is in the lower margin of improvement at sometimes a much higher cost. But, for someone who knows they can get a 15% better sounding theater from a $3000 sub vs a $900 sub, I say that is awesome. For me I would have to have a 65% better sounding theater to justify that particular example of investment. Obviously, I am just not at that level yet. I have the money. But does it make sense for where I am now? That is the best way I can describe my budget.

I figure I will spend what it takes to do it right but it won't be the no expense spared perfect audiophile level. My problem is that most of the quality speakers that I have listened to I like and don't hear to much difference that I couldn't live with. Of course, I am a newbie.

The things you guys are suggesting are awesome. You are all "gentleman and scholars." Regards

 

[process]

Red,
How can I reply the way you did with the dark grey bubble windows? Much Cleaner and notes are taken.

 

[rojo]

You like bargains. Cool! Shop for your electronics at Accessories4Less.

I get the impression that you're comfortable around tools. How do you feel about building speakers from kits? You can save some money that way, while at the same time having a system you will be proud to show off and brag about. Bonus: you can let your wife pick out the veneer or stain, which might make her more tolerant of the noise. The same is true with DIY acoustic panels, letting your wife pick out the fabric to cover them.

Red,
How can I reply the way you did with the dark grey bubble windows? Much Cleaner and notes are taken.

Use the QUOTE tag. See this example usage. If you're wondering what went wrong in post #9, you didn't close the quote with [ /QUOTE ].

 

[jostenmeat]

I do really like your idea of the AT wall allowing one to use any type, size or age of speakers. Maybe could go with a 120" screen with this wall. Also this would eliminate issues such as speakers getting knocked over, brand vanity, visual attractiveness of speakers etc. lol

But how do you come up with the minimum distance that one would have to build the wall out? why 3 or 4ft?

And what kind of AT material would match best with the BenQ w1070? I must say it looks awesome on just cheap stapled up blackout cloth.
Regards

I know you didn't ask me. I use 126" at 12'. I wouldn't mind a touch larger in fact, but I only have so many lumens, even if in a dark cave. Your PJ is certainly going to be brighter than mine, however it is very doubtful that it will be as light controlled as mine. Anyway, I would throw up your image on the wall, anything, and play with all sorts of sources, quality of sources, and various aspect ratios. It would only take an afternoon to know with much greater certainty.

Best AT material is not just about the PJ but everything else. Distance is an issue, as is size, because of brightness. I'm pretty sure I could happily live with XD at 10' if I had to, but I don't have 20/20 vision either. It is awesome stuff. Because it's a weave, you can have the speakers right next to the screen, it's either 1" or 0.5", can't remember which. It is a seriously robust fabric, I literally bloodied my knuckles pulling it taut during the install on my DIY. You can use either side, although the textures look different. You angle the weave, so that moire will be avoided with PJ techs with lower fill ratios such as LCD (LCOS like mine has the highest fill and so it's unnecessary, but I did it anyway just in case). IIRC, even though the more advanced, dimmer, smoother S.E. is great for 4K applications, I think I remember that the XD is fine for 4K too. Future proofed already from many years ago.

Oh, how interesting, I'm not very involved in this hobby anymore (I stopped by just yesterday because of a dead sub amplifier), so I just now discover that they have a newer offering called UF. Neat. It claims that a tilt isn't required either.

Seymour AV | Center Stage screens

3-4' in my experiences is the minimum in my limited personal experiences for speakers to start sounding good. I believe the clarity and imaging are helped due to the reduction of SBIR. But I'm not an audio scientist. In my experiences, even with substantial acoustic treatments on the front wall does this still hold up.

I am a tight a$$ that likes all the good stuff.

You sound just like every other guy here, I think you'll fit right in.

I get the impression that you're comfortable around tools. How do you feel about building speakers from kits? You can save some money that way, while at the same time having a system you will be proud to show off and brag about. Bonus: you can let your wife pick out the veneer or stain, which might make her more tolerant of the noise. The same is true with DIY acoustic panels, letting your wife pick out the fabric to cover them.

What he said! Huge value in terms of performance to cost. You don't pay for marketing, fancy veneer finishes that you're not going to enjoy anyway behind the screen/wall... You can even save some more by building from scratch, including the xover. There are free designs floating out there, build to your heart's content, you just can't sell them for profit is the only thing once built.

 

[process]

Hello All,

I have tried uploading photos of the room, but no dice. Would someone try this link and see if it works?

https://plus.google.com/photos/109149235057434259511/albums/6039366382592423073?authkey=CNq3l8fs0O-LBA

 

[process]

You like bargains. Cool! Shop for your electronics at Accessories4Less.

I get the impression that you're comfortable around tools. How do you feel about building speakers from kits? You can save some money that way, while at the same time having a system you will be proud to show off and brag about. Bonus: you can let your wife pick out the veneer or stain, which might make her more tolerant of the noise. The same is true with DIY acoustic panels, letting your wife pick out the fabric to cover them.

I am fair with tools. I would probably enjoy building speakers from kits. I have mostly found incomplete kits, like just a woofer and a tweeter here and there. What are some decent kits that you have had luck with in the past? I am assuming they have instructions? My wife would probably like it if I kept her involved. What type of acoustical panels did you go with?

 

[process]

I know you didn't ask me. I use 126" at 12'. I wouldn't mind a touch larger in fact, but I only have so many lumens, even if in a dark cave. Your PJ is certainly going to be brighter than mine, however it is very doubtful that it will be as light controlled as mine. Anyway, I would throw up your image on the wall, anything, and play with all sorts of sources, quality of sources, and various aspect ratios. It would only take an afternoon to know with much greater certainty.

Thanks for the reply JMeat. I did think about going to a 120". It all depends on if I go the AT wall route and how far out that wall is located. I am like you bigger the better. I am not sure what "light control" is yet. I know I have an entry level PJ but my friends loved watching The Masters.

Best AT material is not just about the PJ but everything else. Distance is an issue, as is size, because of brightness. I'm pretty sure I could happily live with XD at 10' if I had to, but I don't have 20/20 vision either. It is awesome stuff. Because it's a weave, you can have the speakers right next to the screen, it's either 1" or 0.5", can't remember which. It is a seriously robust fabric, I literally bloodied my knuckles pulling it taut during the install on my DIY. You can use either side, although the textures look different. You angle the weave, so that moire will be avoided with PJ techs with lower fill ratios such as LCD (LCOS like mine has the highest fill and so it's unnecessary, but I did it anyway just in case). IIRC, even though the more advanced, dimmer, smoother S.E. is great for 4K applications, I think I remember that the XD is fine for 4K too. Future proofed already from many years ago.

Oh, how interesting, I'm not very involved in this hobby anymore (I stopped by just yesterday because of a dead sub amplifier), so I just now discover that they have a newer offering called UF. Neat. It claims that a tilt isn't required either.

Seymour AV | Center Stage screens

3-4' in my experiences is the minimum in my limited personal experiences for speakers to start sounding good. I believe the clarity and imaging are helped due to the reduction of SBIR. But I'm not an audio scientist. In my experiences, even with substantial acoustic treatments on the front wall does this still hold up.



You sound just like every other guy here, I think you'll fit right in.



What he said! Huge value in terms of performance to cost. You don't pay for marketing, fancy veneer finishes that you're not going to enjoy anyway behind the screen/wall... You can even save some more by building from scratch, including the xover. There are free designs floating out there, build to your heart's content, you just can't sell them for profit is the only thing once built.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for all the info on the AT material. I am still trying to get evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that I must build the wall and give up about 68 square feet. Have you had any luck with a diy kit?