NAD integrateds. Content with the 316bee?

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PrimalTrombone

Audioholic Intern
In doing some research, I'm closing in on upgrading to an integrated amplifier from my Yamaha AV receiver from the 90's. NAD's offerings have caught my eye as a no-frills, transparent sounding option to power my Cambridge Newton M60's.

I've narrowed them down to either the 316bee or the 326bee. The major differences that might matter to me are the wattage and the differences in distortion. Are those things I should be considering if I don't plan on upgrading speakers or my source (Audioquest Dragonfly DAC) any time soon? I don't plan on ever using the integrated as a pre-amp nor do I plan on playing around with different power cables.

So I think I should be content with the 316bee unless somebody can give me compelling argument to spend the extra money for the 326. The price is certainly something I can live with.

Thanks for the help!
 
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PrimalTrombone

Audioholic Intern
Actually, I just read the spec sheet on the owners manual on the NAD website. The 316bee is plenty of amplifier for what I need. The Crutchfield spec list had a few discrepancies.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
In doing some research, I'm closing in on upgrading to an integrated amplifier from my Yamaha AV receiver from the 90's. NAD's offerings have caught my eye as a no-frills, transparent sounding option to power my Cambridge Newton M60's.

I've narrowed them down to either the 316bee or the 326bee. The major differences that might matter to me are the wattage and the differences in distortion. Are those things I should be considering if I don't plan on upgrading speakers or my source (Audioquest Dragonfly DAC) any time soon? I don't plan on ever using the integrated as a pre-amp nor do I plan on playing around with different power cables.

So I think I should be content with the 316bee unless somebody can give me compelling argument to spend the extra money for the 326. The price is certainly something I can live with.

Thanks for the help!
I would think the answer is yes. If I were in such situation I would still go for the 326, that to me = more bang for the buck.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Not much difference between 40WPC vs 50WPC.

I would just get an AVR or Stereo Receiver with 100WPC or more.

For example the $400 Denon X2000 is 95WPC x 7ch, but in stereo mode 2Ch, it could probably output 120Watts x 2ch into 8 ohms and 150W x 2ch into 4 ohms.

In Direct mode, you are not going to notice any difference between the NAD or these receivers. I would rather have 100Watts or more power than 50W.
 
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PrimalTrombone

Audioholic Intern
Not much difference between 40WPC vs 50WPC.

I would just get an AVR or Stereo Receiver with 100WPC or more.

For example the $400 Denon X2000 is 95WPC x 7ch, but in stereo mode 2Ch, it could probably output 120Watts x 2ch into 8 ohms and 150W x 2ch into 4 ohms.

In Direct mode, you are not going to notice any difference between the NAD or these receivers. I would rather have 100Watts or more power than 50W.
The Denon does look like an attractive option.

The reason why I might be still interested in the 326bee is the distortion at .009%. I listen to mostly classical music where I often have the volume turned up to hear quieter passages with detail. I probably wouldn't use the bells and whistles associated with the Denon.
 
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sharkman

Full Audioholic
I've got the 326, so I did a little digging. The 316 has a max power draw of 2 amps, the 326 3 amps(taken from back panel), so it sounds like the 326 has a more robust power supply design which goes beyond the wattage rating. The 326 also has a trigger output and pre out jacks should you ever need them. Either would sound fine. I ordered the 326 as a clearance item, their graphite color, for 80 off( preferred black). But when it arrived, although the box label said graphite, it was black.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The Denon does look like an attractive option.

The reason why I might be still interested in the 326bee is the distortion at .009%. I listen to mostly classical music where I often have the volume turned up to hear quieter passages with detail. I probably wouldn't use the bells and whistles associated with the Denon.
You will not even hear a difference between a THD of 0.009% vs. 0.9%.

Remember, distortion in your speakers is about 1%-10%, depending on frequency, speakers, volume. So distortion of anything less than 1% in the amp or preamp isn't going to mean anything IMO.
 
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PrimalTrombone

Audioholic Intern
You will not even hear a difference between a THD of 0.009% vs. 0.9%.

Remember, distortion in your speakers is about 1%-10%, depending on frequency, speakers, volume. So distortion of anything less than 1% in the amp or preamp isn't going to mean anything IMO.
Very helpful!

So, why is the NAD more expensive with far fewer features and power? Is it simply because it says NAD on it?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Very helpful!

So, why is the NAD more expensive with far fewer features and power? Is it simply because it says NAD on it?
Part of it is the name brand.

Part of it is labor cost. Some companies find ways to reduce cost of labor. Hand-made parts can be more expensive than mass market machined parts. But machined parts are often times actually better.

Part of it, depending on how expensive the components are, is heavier duty/ more durable parts that may last longer. But I've seen cheap $300 AVRs that last 20 years and expensive $2000 preamps that fail after 2 years.

When it comes to electronics (amps and preamps in direct mode without DSP or EQ to change the sound), measurements don't lie. A $500 Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, Sony, HK AVR may have better THD, frequency response, crosstalk, and SNR than some $5,000 AVRs.

But the key is whether these measurements can actually yield audible differences. You can't tell the difference between a THD of 0.1% vs 0.000001%, SNR of -130dB vs -100dB, Crosstalk of -120dB vs -70dB, FR of +/-0.0dB vs +/-0.5dB.

My personal experience is that in true direct mode and level matched, I can't much significant difference between an AVR vs preamp vs pre-pro vs Integrated amp. An AVR will play 2Ch music extremely well like any Integrated amp or preamp + amp.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Very helpful!

So, why is the NAD more expensive with far fewer features and power? Is it simply because it says NAD on it?
I tend to agree with AcuDefTechGuy on several points about why some gear are more expensive yet won't necessarily mean better performance or even reliability. The economy of scale is also a key factor as manufacturers sell tons of AVR but few integrated, even less separates. Surely you can understand why the more you sell the lower your cost to make them.

As for THD+N, it is not possible to interpret that as a guarantee for sound quality because there are other factors such as the spectrum of the distortions, and the way the numbers are derived etc. Typically speaking, anything less than 0.1% quoted by a reputable manufacturer, there is likely not much to worry about though the lower figures obviously look more attractive to most people.

If you look at some test bench results, most AVRs did manage better results than you may think, below is an example from S&V.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-e400-av-receiver-test-bench

Denon AVR-E400 (Rated: 90 WPC, 2 channel drive)

Test Bench results:

0.1% THD
1.0% THD
2 Channels, 8 Ohms
103.0 watts
116.5 watts
2 Channels, 4 Ohms
93.3 watts
166.4 watts
5 Channels, 8 Ohms
70.0 watts
84.7 watts
7 Channels, 8 Ohms
62.3 watts
69.5 watts

<tbody>
</tbody>

So you can see that this 90W rated entry model was able to output 100W at 0.1%, but if you follow the link and look at the graph you will see that at below 50W, the THD was much lower than the NAD's 0.009%. Of course you should also look up NAD's test bench results from S&V for a fair comparison. Keep in mind the E400 is a really low end Denon AVR and I wouldn't recommend it either.

I would think this http://www.amazon.ca/Harman-Kardon-HK3490-Two-Channel-Receiver/dp/B00198F89A one is a superior buy than the NAD integrated if you can still get one.
 
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sharkman

Full Audioholic
On the Denon AVR E300, does anyone have a theory as to why its rated power consumption compares so poorly to the NAD 326? Also, would you say that the THD spec is the most important one? It doesn't appear to be since we can't hear the difference between .1 and .01, or am I missing something? There are a dozen or more other specs, and if one is to compare specs, the whole picture needs to be looked at if one wants a more accurate assessment.

I'd say the reasons why the NAD seems so expensive over a Denon would be economies of scale, simple economics. NAD may have superior spec'ed parts as well, which is no guarantee of longer life, and that's not the reason for parts selection per se. To the OP, there are two schools of thought on modern amps. One says that all amps or amp sections sound exactly the same, or at least close enough that you can't tell them apart, when running within their design parameters and not in some way damaged or out of spec.

The other school thinks differently. How can 40 or 50 manufacturers, using different approaches, different techniques, different goals and budgets, different technologies and different materials end up with amps or receivers that sound EXACTLY the same? I owned 2 NAD integrated amps, the C372 and still own the C326. I also own a Parasound A21 and preamp P7. They all sound unique. Not night and day, but it's there nevertheless. An AVR is a collection of compromises and cost cutting decisions that you won't see in an integrated.

When I bought the 326, it replaced an Onkyo AVR that was running 2 speakers in a bedroom system. The NAD was superior in several ways, and the result was it brought my speakers to life. This forum tends to have the group think that all amps sound the same. Certain members will argue this endlessly, but don't get sucked into that. Simply take your time, audition some models if you can with music you are familiar with. Buy what you want, not what some stranger on the internet recommends, including me.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
This forum tends to have the group think that all amps sound the same. Certain members will argue this endlessly, but don't get sucked into that.
It's a 2-way street. Certain members will argue perpetually (without any support from double-blinded studies) that every amp sounds significantly differently although many double-blinded level-matched studies say the opposite. :eek:

All we do here is voice our opinions. Either way. About 50% of the members seem to think every single amp sound differently. The other 50% seem to disagree. But double-blinded studies have shown (notice I did not say PROVEN) that many people cannot tell a significant difference among amps.

If you have compared level-matched amps and think they all sound significantly differently, then that is your opinion. The opposite is also true.

I have compared Mark Levinson, Bryston, McIntosh, Krell, Classe, NAD, and many amps. I have not been able to tell much of a difference when there is no DSP or EQ involved and the volume level is matched.

Both sides are heard. Endlessly.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If you look at measurements of even the $300 AVR, you will see excellent results. Flat frequency response +/-0.1dB. Crosstalk of at least 70dB. THD of at least 0.1%. SNR of at least 100dBA.

We know that speakers and subs will have more distortion and are do not measure as flat as all these AVRs. Most speakers measure +/-3dB or much WORSE. The best ones measure +/-1dB, which is rare.

So the weak link is usually the loudspeaker, not the AVR or amps.
 
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sharkman

Full Audioholic
...

If you look at some test bench results, most AVRs did manage better results than you may think, below is an example from S&V.

Denon AVR-E400 AV Receiver Test Bench | Sound & Vision

Denon AVR-E400 (Rated: 90 WPC, 2 channel drive)

Test Bench results:

0.1% THD1.0% THD
2 Channels, 8 Ohms103.0 watts116.5 watts
2 Channels, 4 Ohms93.3 watts166.4 watts
5 Channels, 8 Ohms70.0 watts84.7 watts
7 Channels, 8 Ohms62.3 watts69.5 watts

<tbody>
</tbody>

So you can see that this 90W rated entry model was able to output 100W at 0.1%, but if you follow the link and look at the graph you will see that at below 50W, the THD was much lower than the NAD's 0.009%. Of course you should also look up NAD's test bench results from S&V for a fair comparison. Keep in mind the E400 is a really low end Denon AVR and I wouldn't recommend it either.
I'm not sure if it's the same thing as what you've listed above, but the NAD could do 200 watts per channel dynamic power at 2 ohms. I note that they didn't bother to test the Denon with a 2 ohm load, which speaks volumes. That's what I was getting at with my previous post. The NAD is measured at 20 amps for peak output current at 1 ohm. Any idea what the Denon can do at 1 ohm? The NAD's power consumption is at 360 watts max for 100 watts output. The Denon is 460 watts for 630 watts rated output. That doesn't really add up, does it?

Edit: for the power consumption numbers I used the Denon E400, since that's the model that was tested in your link, and took the power consumption numbers off the back panel. I am saying that the Denon will consume a max of 460 watts, and somehow multiply it into 630 total claimed watts output to the speakers. Magic, if you will, that doesn't add up.

I don't think another round of the "debate" is of any use, I only brought it up to give the OP some context and background in his deliberations. Perhaps we could refrain from our old arguments in this thread?
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
On the Denon AVR E300, does anyone have a theory as to why its rated power consumption compares so poorly to the NAD 326?
Not sure what you meant by "so poorly"?

NAD 326

Rated power consumption 290W, output 50W X 2

That means overall efficiency equals approx. 100/290=69%

Denon E300 power consumption 360W, output 75W X 2, 175W total 5 channel.

That means overall efficiency equals approx. 150/360=41.7% 2 channel, or 175/360=48.7%.

So on paper the NAD has better efficiency as it outputs more at a given input (power consumption). However, let me repeat some of the issues on this topic I posted many time before:

1) Manufacturers don't seem to base their specifications on the same standard(s).

2) Related to above, you will find terms used include: power consumption, maximum power consumption, rated consumption, power consumption at rated output, and/or a combination of those, for example, some Yamaha models provide both power conumption and maximum power consumption or maximum power consumption.

3) Some specify different power consumption for different country models, further indication that they have different standards to base/comply their published figures on/to.

Example: Yamaha 1020 USA model power consumption: 490W, Canada model: 400W, Korea model: 390W, Max power consumption: 1190W

Also, would you say that the THD spec is the most important one? It doesn't appear to be since we can't hear the difference between .1 and .01, or am I missing something? There are a dozen or more other specs, and if one is to compare specs, the whole picture needs to be looked at if one wants a more accurate assessment.
I standby what I said in my previous post. It is an important one but by itself does not guarantee the sound quality that you like. I definitely agree one has to look at the whole picture for a more accurate assessment. That however is often a moot point because most so call mid range gear are kind of at or near the point of diminishing return due to the limits of our audio sense.

I'd say the reasons why the NAD seems so expensive over a Denon would be economies of scale, simple economics.
That's what I said too, good to know we can agree on something.:D

there are two schools of thought on modern amps. One says that all amps or amp sections sound exactly the same, or at least close enough that you can't tell them apart, when running within their design parameters and not in some way damaged or out of spec.
To me I thought I could hear some difference between AVR/amps I have, but they seemed so close to me that there is no way I can tell them apart in a blind test. I don't think I am overly placebo prone but I know I am affected by my sight and knowing the cost, design, and build quality differences. I may belong to a 3rd school of thoughts if one exists.

The other school thinks differently. How can 40 or 50 manufacturers, using different approaches, different techniques, different goals and budgets, different technologies and different materials end up with amps or receivers that sound EXACTLY the same?
IMO because a) they don't sound exactly the same, but too close to call in a blind test. b) all well designed amps are designed and built to specs that well past the point where humans can tell with their limited audio sense, truly gifted and trained golden ears excepted. c) like anything else, engineers can build things to do the same with different design and material, especially when you only have to meet requirements that are not hard to do given current technological advance.

I am sure others can come up with better examples but to me it could be like looking from 100 ft away there is no way I can tell the difference between two objects of the same shape but one is 100 ft long while the other is 100.5 ft long unless they are line up side by side.

I owned 2 NAD integrated amps, the C372 and still own the C326. I also own a Parasound A21 and preamp P7. They all sound unique. Not night and day, but it's there nevertheless. An AVR is a collection of compromises and cost cutting decisions that you won't see in an integrated.
That does not put you in one school or the other.:D IMO though, NAD maybe one of those that has its own sonic signature. I heard them before, and I am biased base on their unique design in a couple areas, one being the soft clipping thing.

Simply take your time, audition some models if you can with music you are familiar with. Buy what you want, not what some stranger on the internet recommends, including me.
Agree, but could be difficult for some people, at least time consuming.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I note that they didn't bother to test the Denon with a 2 ohm load, which speaks volumes.
As much gravitas as their lack of 2 ohms testing on all the amps they measure. Does that mean none of the amps they measured can handle a 2 ohms load?
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
NAD's "powerdrive" is a take on class G/H power supplies, hence the difference in efficiency noted above. They really can hit their dynamic power ratings, at least briefly, I've had several on the bench to confirm it. It's hard to clip them with music signals, even into wacky loads. Good amps.
 
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PrimalTrombone

Audioholic Intern
From what it sounds like, amps at a similar price point will probably sound different but not significantly. I'm probably not going to end up with an amp that sounds like garbage if I have a decent source (Dragonfly v1.2 with lossless tracks) and decent bookshelf speakers (Cambridge Newton M60's). Perhaps a spec that I should be looking out for is power to open up the possibility of upgrading to larger speakers. Using an AV amp vs an integrated is certainly a more versatile, if not slightly overwhelming option.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
From what it sounds like, amps at a similar price point will probably sound different but not significantly. I'm probably not going to end up with an amp that sounds like garbage if I have a decent source (Dragonfly v1.2 with lossless tracks) and decent bookshelf speakers (Cambridge Newton M60's). Perhaps a spec that I should be looking out for is power to open up the possibility of upgrading to larger speakers. Using an AV amp vs an integrated is certainly a more versatile, if not slightly overwhelming option.
Electronic Expo has an open-box Denon X4000 for $850 shipped. Talk to one of their sales guy and see if he can hook you up with a brand new one for $850 delivered.

It outputs 226WPC x 2Ch into 4 ohms (measured by Home Theater Magazine). Probably more than you will need. But if you should (highly unlikely) need more power, you can always add an external amp.
 
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PrimalTrombone

Audioholic Intern
Electronic Expo has an open-box Denon X4000 for $850 shipped. Talk to one of their sales guy and see if he can hook you up with a brand new one for $850 delivered.

It outputs 226WPC x 2Ch into 4 ohms (measured by Home Theater Magazine). Probably more than you will need. But if you should (highly unlikely) need more power, you can always add an external amp.
Thanks for the find! That's a bit out of my budget but I definitely feel like I have some excellent advice. If I end up upgrading speakers I hope to one day audition the EMP E55Ti towers. The X4000 is probably an excellent partner for that in my den in the distant future.
 
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