I need a musical subwoofer

Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Or ask Josh Ricci what he thinks about it since he's tested tons of subwoofers and he'd have firsthand knowledge of how a unit sounds at the limit.
To steal a few words from Josh on the subject:
Is the Seaton SubMersive HP the Benchmark Sub? - Page 5
I would like to agree with Mark and a few others that while CEA-2010 output data is important it is only one limited metric and it does not give the whole picture. While IMHO the headroom limits of a system are one of the key indicators of performance since it typically gives information about how well the system tracks large dynamic transients, how deep the useful extension is, response shape when driven to the limit, etc...There is far more to a good system design than putting up big numbers. For example CEA-2010 is supposed to be maximum clean output but in fact a lot of systems sound obviously distressed or even bad while still passing CEA-2010 due to mechanical noises, rattles, port noise etc. IOW I would not call them clean by any means. Other systems will fail a frequency band because of a slight amount of harmonic distortion in the final bandwidth amounting to only a few % and still sounding perfectly acceptable to the ear. CEA-2010 is not perfect. It is not a guarantee of acceptable sound at the levels measured. 2 units may have similar distortion levels and output but one may sound far cleaner to the ear. Also do not make the mistake of thinking that the CEA-2010 output is the maximum output. Sometimes it is sometimes it is not. Typically at 40Hz and above it will be maximum output or close but in the deep bass especially it may not be. Some systems will easily put out an additional 6dB over the CEA-2010 measurements due to the distortion profile. I typically try to list these absolute maximum output levels as well in the individual CEA-2010 chart for each system. This is just the CEA-2010 test. Each of the other measurements also have things that they can and cannot tell you about the system. There is far more to a good sub than just putting up big CEA-2010 burst numbers. Besides the other measurements there are also all of the intangibles like customer service, finishing, build quality, warranty period, price and aspects of the sound that may not show up in the typical measurements.
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
Thanks Steve, those are the points most pass over.
It would be nice if that "whole picture" was more understood. Measurements like group delay and waterfall plots generally get glazed over. Parrots on the forums tend be conditioned and trained well :rolleyes:
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
Using Steve's example, I too have heard subwoofers that didn't test as well, but their 'pitfall' was really in a region that wasn't as important. Josh's 'bit more THD on the last octave, versus port noise' - is a perfect example. The former would be inaudible, versus the latter could be downright annoying! Yet, still perform better in the test.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I did not expect so many in the audioholic's forum to argue for THD. Dirty sound is dirty sound. You might not be able to easily distinguish THD during an explosion, however, if you did quick A/B switching between a sound clean of THD and a sound ridden with THD, you would be able to hear it. And remember, even for home theater purposes, deep bass is not just relegated to explosions. Honestly I think the older semi-standard of 10% THD limit is better, especially for those interested in high fidelity playback. If all you care about is loud explosion, I suppose CEA2010 is better.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
I'm not an advocate for high THD. I'm merely stating my support for the CEA-2010 standard until something better comes along. Obviously if I was picking between two units with the exact same CEA 2010 output scores I'd choose whichever one had lower distortion. I certainly do not think that max burst numbers are everything. I appreciate ALL of the measurements ricci takes.
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
I did not expect so many in the audioholic's forum to argue for THD. Dirty sound is dirty sound. You might not be able to easily distinguish THD during an explosion, however, if you did quick A/B switching between a sound clean of THD and a sound ridden with THD, you would be able to hear it. And remember, even for home theater purposes, deep bass is not just relegated to explosions. Honestly I think the older semi-standard of 10% THD limit is better, especially for those interested in high fidelity playback. If all you care about is loud explosion, I suppose CEA2010 is better.
Again you reference dirty sound, dirty by whom. Please read up on harmonics and distortion. You fail to see the positive affects. I'm not taking about the regions were it's distinguished but where tactile enhancements are beneficial. Don't go off about measurements without fully understanding what the effects are. Spend some time reading up on it you might be surprised.
 
T

Tom V.

Audioholic
Again you reference dirty sound, dirty by whom. Please read up on harmonics and distortion. You fail to see the positive affects. I'm not taking about the regions were it's distinguished but where tactile enhancements are beneficial. Don't go off about measurements without fully understanding what the effects are. Spend some time reading up on it you might be surprised.
+1

Some folks act like the CEA-2010 measurement protocol was something conceived by a few keyboard commandos with no experience in measurements, data collection, statistical relevance, listening tests(both sighted and otherwise), etc, etc. The *truth* is CEA-2010 took years to fully develop and dozens of leading industry engineers were involved in the process. Subscribe to AES and review Don Keele's work. Disagree? Hey, it's a free country. But show some EVIDENCE supporting your opinion if you expect most folks to suddenly consider you more knowledgeable than DK in this matter.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
+1

Some folks act like the CEA-2010 measurement protocol was something conceived by a few keyboard commandos with no experience in measurements, data collection, statistical relevance, listening tests(both sighted and otherwise), etc, etc. The *truth* is CEA-2010 took years to fully develop and dozens of leading industry engineers were involved in the process. Subscribe to AES and review Don Keele's work. Disagree? Hey, it's a free country. But show some EVIDENCE supporting your opinion if you expect most folks to suddenly consider you more knowledgeable than DK in this matter.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Well stated Tom. I think it's also important to look at group delay and bandwidth linearity as well. Low group delay + wide bandwidth often equates to "musical" subwoofers. After running countless sweep tests and CEA tests I can tell you that audibility of distortion starts happening when the distortion reading is A LOT higher than one would think. CEA 2010 does a really good job of objectifying this IMO.
 
JohnnieB

JohnnieB

Senior Audioholic
Gene, which subs do you feel meet the requirements for a musical sub? Im considering a pair of Rhythmik F12, would those qualify?
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
I'm not gene obviously...but any decent sub will be "musical."
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
I find servo subs to be musical for the most part. Uniform group delay IMHO is a good indication for a listening evaluation. Sealed subs in the right room on the whole tend to have a more natural sound. I also define musical as faithful reproduction, so if one listens to electronic music there isn't a way to define it. Having had a few of the velodyne dd subs, paradigm sig, and currently 2 epik empires, I can say I prefer sealed. This isn't to say ported isn't musical, but other than folded horns / TLs sealed tends to be my preference
 

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