Analog Amplifiers - Just how low can you go and get good sound?

[skizzerflake]

A couple weeks ago, I reported on my flea market purchase of a 1968 25 WPC Lafayette stereo receiver for the grand sum of $5. Much to my surprise, I plugged it in and it worked. Since then, I took off the cabinet, de-dusted the inside, patched the precarious power cord and cleaned up all the contacts. Historically - I had a decent all analog system with a Carver amp, NAD preamp, 1980’s Dual table and Vandersteen speakers. It got hit by lightning, wiped out the electronics and since then the table and speakers (which survived) have been running on a retired Yamaha HT receiver, sort of in a holding pattern.


The interesting question - This Lafayette receiver has resurrected the analog system…cleaned up this thing really sounds great, provided that you don’t push too hard with its 25 WPC. It has revitalized some of my old, worn vinyl disks (the sort you also find in flea markets). Granted, the best analog I ever heard was in a store in Soho NYC, cost $100,000 and damn well should have sounded great. Nevertheless, on well recorded disks, this system now sounds like there’s a bunch of musicians in my living room. I guess you don’t really need to spend 100K, but just how low CAN you go? Given some decent speakers, good input and clean connections (the wires I am using were the best that Radio Shack sells, $50 all told), what can you do with a cheap amp? The Vandersteens are really nice, but could I drive them with an old boom box? When I compare this sound to the $100K Soho system, sure it’s not THAT good, but then I didn’t pay $40K for an amplifier. Will any decent amp sound good in the right setting?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I believe just about any high quality amp will sound great in the right setting - no annoying hum noise or loud audible hiss or other distortion.

But this only represents about 50% of audiophiles because the other 50% would assume your $5 25W AVR should sound like dung heap no matter what you say or experience.

 

[PENG]

I believe just about any high quality amp will sound great in the right setting - no annoying hum noise or loud audible hiss or other distortion.

My vintage 140W amp (>30 years old) with original caps, actually everything inside is original, sounds great too. Hard to tell any difference than the much newer Bryston and the brand new Halo amps. There's not just me who felt that, also other people with me doing the switching. But then, I could say the same about my old but not too old AVR-3805.

So I have to agree with you again on this. All amps don't sound the same, but most high quality ones almost do when driving loads they can handle comfortably.

 

[3db]

For $5, you did extremely well. If you don't feel the need to play it louder, leave it alone. It appears to me that things are working well for you. I too have a Yamaha, an RX-V1800 which is dual purposed fro my two channel and HT needs. It does very well.

The coolest thing about vinyl, especially used, is that some of the albums one can find simply don't exist on CD or found in the digital domain. Those albums bring a huge smile to my face.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Old or new audio - the rule is the same - speakers will make or break it. You have excellent Vandersteen speaker - it's no surprise to me that they sound great with adequate amp
And I think I had mentioned in your Lafayette receiver question thread - these are not bad, if fully functional

Now to the question of how "low" you could get? - Again - It depends on having great speakers and adequate amp. How to define adequate ? - Amp which works within it's specs with very low distortion

 

[markw]

A lot depends on your speakers. If the amp has the power to drive them withoput barfing then almost any amp will sound pretty durn good. Many people love those ultry trendy, ultra expensive, flea power one tube amps that are en vogue today which, back in the day your Lafayette was made, would have been a laughing stock.

My first amp was a Lafayette LA-224A, 6 watts RMS of pure joy to a high school kid in the mid 60's.

 

[skizzerflake]

Loudness is OK. I turned up up about 1/3 and used my Radio Shack db meter and it was going about 78 db, which is OK in my rather sonically tomb-like living room. The Yamaha that was there previously was 100 wpc, but at the math tells us, that really is only about 6 db louder at the max that I would not push for. Prior to the lightning strike, I had a 250 wpc Carver, but truthfully, I never cranked that one up anywhere near "11". I don't know how much life this thing has in it at the ripe age of 46, but for now, it's just fine.

 

[Alex2507]

For $5, you did extremely well.

I could have bagged that for $3.75

 

[3db]

I could have bagged that for $3.75

Interesting.. Single bag or dual bagged? I wonder what Rick or Adam could have bagged it for?

 

[jcparks]

I like this post...
Given unlimited resources, anyone can make a top quality audio system. There is a sense of accomplishment that comes from treasure hunting, finding that once awesome piece, and restoring it to its former glory. Not only do you save a lot of money, but you appreciate your components more. Further more they make for conversation pieces... "doesn't this sound awesome? can you believe I picked up the amp for only 5 dollars??"
Of coarse you have to be choosy or you could end up like my Grandpa and have 2 houses full of "practically brand new" junk.
-Chris

 

[skizzerflake]

I could have bagged that for $3.75

I would have outbid you at $7.50.

 

[skizzerflake]

I like this post...
Given unlimited resources, anyone can make a top quality audio system. There is a sense of accomplishment that comes from treasure hunting, finding that once awesome piece, and restoring it to its former glory. Not only do you save a lot of money, but you appreciate your components more. Further more they make for conversation pieces... "doesn't this sound awesome? can you believe I picked up the amp for only 5 dollars??"
Of coarse you have to be choosy or you could end up like my Grandpa and have 2 houses full of "practically brand new" junk.
-Chris

This was my second try at this. The aforementioned lightning-hit system was built around the speakers I already had that were moving out of service due to the HT thing in the basement. I did some Ebay shopping and found the Carver amp, preamp and turntable for all around $120 each. I don't think I can always get away for $5, but shopping on Ebay worked. That's a gamble, but it paid off 3 times. The Dual 1228 turntable is an '80's gem. I had an old Empire gold cartridge form way back when and I found a fresh stylus from the Needle Doctor. The preamp was a pre-digital NAD, also a fine piece. While $5 amps that work are a rarity, you can put together a nice system without putting out extreme audiophile money. You might need to do some work like de-dusting, contact cleaning, etc, but it's a fun effort that can pay off with a nice system.

 

[jcparks]

Which Vandersteen's do you use?? I've never been able to afford a pair of them myself, but they have a Home Team kind of feel for me cause Richard Vandersteen designs and builds them in Hanford CA which is the city that I grew up in. I'm always watching for a pair of them to turn up on craigslist. I did pass up a pair of model 1's for 100 dollars about a year ago. They were ok but the timing was off and being that they were probably 25 years old and the "budget" model, I just wasn't blown away enough to pick them up.

 

[skizzerflake]

Mine are 2C's from way back, in fact bought with a dog bite-lawsuit windfall. They were somewhat out of use for a while but they've always been great full range speakers that are finding a new life lately in their intended stereo music role, as opposed to home theater. These babies love being in an all analog system.

 

[Alex2507]

At a recent DIY speaker meet I got to hear a 20 or maybe a 25 watt Class A amp drive a bunch of different speakers to decent levels without flinching. Mind you this thing probably cost in excess of a grand and weighed 68 pounds. The point of not cranking it up too loud was to not induce listener fatigue that would wreck the listening experience with the speakers yet to take the stage. However after all the various speakers got their 5 minutes center stage things did get cranked up past 'comfortable' listening levels. I only learned of the low wattage after it was all over.

Regarding wattage I recently snagged an onk 606 pretty cheap (50 bucks) and was pretty happy to find this:

Going by memory I believe it did something like: 2 Ch 115/166 8/4 ohms at 0.1 THD and 144/222 8/4 ohms at 1%

Granted I paid 10x as much but it came with a remote!

 

[skizzerflake]

At a recent DIY speaker meet I got to hear a 20 or maybe a 25 watt Class A amp drive a bunch of different speakers to decent levels without flinching. Mind you this thing probably cost in excess of a grand and weighed 68 pounds. The point of not cranking it up too loud was to not induce listener fatigue that would wreck the listening experience with the speakers yet to take the stage. However after all the various speakers got their 5 minutes center stage things did get cranked up past 'comfortable' listening levels. I only learned of the low wattage after it was all over.

Regarding wattage I recently snagged an onk 606 pretty cheap (50 bucks) and was pretty happy to find this:



Granted I paid 10x as much but it came with a remote!

It makes sense math-wise, considering the exponential nature of loudness and wattage that as long as you don't turn it up too loud, you can do it. Once you hit the inflection point in the curve, however, a few DB louder and things don't go well. Fortunately, for me, I don't generally listen too loud. In my pre-lightning system with the 250 WPC Carver, I never illuminated most of the little LEDs that indicated power output, so I guess I really didn't need an amp that could double as an arc welder.

 

[Alex2507]

Speaking of 250 watt Carvers ...



I was hungry that day ... and every other day since but I digest.

That one eventually got a little noisy for condo use where you're always close to everything so it got retired. I want to have it tuned up but in it's current state it would fit right in with what is essentially a system set up to crank tunes into a shop. That's what the Onk 606 is for too.

I'll have to name that system. The Carver was free ... I may have exchanged a service or two but no money changed hands. Despite what people say, I am not a whore ... well, not that time. The other components were either free or cheap and the speakers were modified (with a sledge hammer).

The graphs PENG provided showed that point of inflection you mentioned. I've seen a million graphs but having a name put to that point where the output starts coming undone is having an impact on my understanding of how things are. It would be interesting to see a graph like that for any particular set of speakers but with SPL coupled with the THD figure. Then you could actually see/compare the loudness of different amps with an SPL figure up to that point of inflection. No doubt it could be done with math but not by me.

 

[skizzerflake]

Speaking of 250 watt Carvers ...



I was hungry that day ... and every other day since but I digest.

That one eventually got a little noisy for condo use where you're always close to everything so it got retired. I want to have it tuned up but in it's current state it would fit right in with what is essentially a system set up to crank tunes into a shop. That's what the Onk 606 is for too.

I'll have to name that system. The Carver was free ... I may have exchanged a service or two but no money changed hands. Despite what people say, I am not a whore ... well, not that time. The other components were either free or cheap and the speakers were modified (with a sledge hammer).

The graphs PENG provided showed that point of inflection you mentioned. I've seen a million graphs but having a name put to that point where the output starts coming undone is having an impact on my understanding of how things are. It would be interesting to see a graph like that for any particular set of speakers but with SPL coupled with the THD figure. Then you could actually see/compare the loudness of different amps with an SPL figure up to that point of inflection. No doubt it could be done with math but not by me.

Using the amp to keep the plate warm?

I'm guessing that there is some sort of 4 dimensional relation between the amp's power curve and when it hits is limit as well as the speaker and when it hit ITS limit..the stuff of math models. I think I'd just listen and turn it down when it gets nasty.