Buy or lease... BMW or Ford...

[Sheep]

Man I have been an Acura fan for years. I had an 05 TL and now have an 07 TL Type S. I've driven EVERY Acura including the newer hideous looking TL's. The newer 4G TL's are good cars but they are very bloated and the controls confusing. The SH-AWD version doesn't even come close to how a BMW 335i Sport drives or handles. The M235i blows the doors off anything Acura makes. Sorry to tell you that man. Granted BMW's are more money but they are a true drivers car.

The new TLX is very uninspiring to me. FWD on an almost $40k car is unacceptable to me. Lack of a gear shifter, lack of rear exhausts, ugly rims, bland styling. Go check out Acurazine.com, Acura fans are NOT liking this car and it hasn't even been released yet. The RLX has been a dismal failure as well. Even KIA has RWD now. I don't understand why Acura doesn't get this?!?

I really wanted to continue with Acura but the beak, and car bloat over the last 4 years has moved me away from the brand.

Audi, Mercedes and BMW are far more appealing cars to me now. Consumer Reports continues to rate all the new Audi's top of the class and Mercedes is right up there on many of their models in reliability and especially owner satisfaction.

Bloat? If you think your 3G TL is nimble, you must not have driven the 4G, or a broken one with no wheels. It's much lighter, tighter, faster. It's faster then BMWs and Audis in the same price range and higher. There was a video done up pitting an 09 style SH-AWD TL against an A6 or something and it bested it in a small course. Add to the fact that the TL is sized like a 5 series, and you can obviously see why it is larger then a 3 series, it's not classed with a 3 series. Say what you want about the controls, but it's really easy to figure out after a day or 2. You won't understand that in a 30 minute test drive. Also, try one with the 6 speed manual, drift hoonage.

The TLX is a TSX and TL in one, so it had to have a 4 pot. It also has standard PAWS unless you have the AWD version, which has gas pedal steering. Who cares about manuals on new cars, Automatics and DCT are faster, and better.

The RLX is not a performance sedan, but it does get to 60 in under 6 seconds. Take the new RLX Sport Hybrid and you have a 5 series eater that will still return 30+ mpg city driving, as well as much better handling with electric torque vectoring (you don't have to throttle on to help rotate through a corner). It will also drag the inside well to rotate the car as well.

As for the bold section. If you jump ship, I'll be there the day you start the thread (and you know you'll start one) titled "Car at the shop again, mechanics can't figure out the problem, and can you spare some change?"

SheepStar

 

[Irvrobinson]

That better?

SheepStar

Well, no, Sheep. You come off like a biased dealership employee who thinks his brand is best.

 

[Sheep]

Well, no, Sheep. You come off like a biased dealership employee who thinks his brand is best.

I guess you missed my post with the Mazda I own. I should also inform you that I talked my parents out of leasing a Honda CRV and got them into a Toyota Prius V. Both cars from car companies not even covered in my auto group. So I'm not biased towards Honda/Acura. They currently don't make a car I want to buy new (which is why I don't have one right now). I'd love a Fiat 500 abarth after test driving one a few months back, but I can't comment on long term ownership. It's also a lot for how small and relatively useless it is (I need something that holds bicycles).

In a few weeks I have a test drive booked with a MaClaren MP4-12C. I'll let you know how that goes.

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

Oh and Gene, if you paint the grill, it looks goooooood.

 

[3db]

Oh and Gene, if you paint the grill, it looks goooooood.

In one word ugly. All the Japs can do is copy what what the Germans put out in terms of styling.
AWD does not make a driver's car. Give me a rear wheel drive car any day and I will put that car using throttle oversteer anywhere on the road you choose. You can't do that with FWD or AWD. Physics won'lt allow that. Y

 

[Midwesthonky]

Wow! This thread sudden took a turn for the negative...

 

[jinjuku]

From a looks department I really don't like the current model BMW's. They have changed something about their styling cues that just is a turn off for me.

Also Honda really messed up the Acura. What is with that huge beak up front and the pinched trunk line?

Lexus went all angular.

On the other hand the 14/15 Explorers look really nice.

 

[Adam]

From a looks department I really don't like the current model BMW's. They have changed something about their styling cues that just is a turn off for me.

Agreed. As much as I want to want a BMW, I don't.

A car that I've never been in but think looks really great from the outside ("hey, just like women", "shut up" ) is the Subaru BRZ.

 

[Sheep]

In one word ugly. All the Japs can do is copy what what the Germans put out in terms of styling.
AWD does not make a driver's car. Give me a rear wheel drive car any day and I will put that car using throttle oversteer anywhere on the road you choose. You can't do that with FWD or AWD. Physics won'lt allow that. Y

I think you need to read up on the SH-AWD System, you seem to not understand much, or anything about how it operates.

SH-AWD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll provide you with some cliff notes for the 2009 Generation TL. Note this was written before the release of the 6 speed manual.

"The fourth generation Acura TL, introduced in late 2008 as a 2009 model has two major trim levels, a front-wheel-drive version, and an upmarket SH-AWD version. Similar in layout to the Acura RL, the Acura SH-AWD TL features a 3.7L 305 hp VTEC V-6, transversely mounted front engine in the Global Midsize Platform. The 2009 model uses a five-speed automatic transmission, but Acura has also promised a new six-speed manual transmission for the 2010 model year. It remains to be seen if the 2010 model will also feature the newly announced six-speed automatic transmission featured in the prototype Acura ZDX announced at the April 2009 New York Auto Show. Unlike the Acura RL, the SH-AWD TL does not have the Acceleration Device.SH-AWD operating parameters include:

• Up to 90 percent of available torque can be transferred to the front wheels during normal cruising.
• In hard cornering and under acceleration, up to 70 percent of available torque can be directed to the rear wheels to enhance vehicle dynamics.
• Up to 100 percent of the torque sent to the rear axle can be applied to either rear wheel, depending on conditions."

Even with the automatic, if you disable the traction control you will power slide, Driven to confirm However, the sheer traction capabilities of the system makes the car turn in like a much smaller, more nimble car, power sliding is actually less fun.

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

Agreed. As much as I want to want a BMW, I don't.

A car that I've never been in but think looks really great from the outside ("hey, just like women", "shut up" ) is the Subaru BRZ.

I've driven the FRS. It was an automatic (wasn't a dealer test drive), but still it was a blast. I can only imagine that the 6 speed is better. From my memory, the car felt well planted, very communicative and the brake pedal was out of this world good. Like, generation 991 Porsche 911 Carrera S good. I never thought I could achieve such a satisfying feeling by stopping. On the negative side, the interior was very cheap (FRS, BRZ might be a tad better, but not by much if any), stereo sucked, and besides getting good fuel economy, it doesn't quite have the room or utility to be a 1 car for all type of car, it's just too small.

SheepStar

 

[jinjuku]

I just want a totally restored and gussied up older K5 Blazer

 

[Midwesthonky]

I just want a totally restored and gussied up older K5 Blazer

I want to build a Cobra replica like those sold by Factory Five Racing. It has no purpose other than to convert dead dinosaurs into smiles. I'm ok with that. It would make a GREAT mid-life crisis car.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I think you need to read up on the SH-AWD System, you seem to not understand much, or anything about how it operates.

No, I don't think you understand 3db's point. Transverse front engine placement is an inherently flawed design for great handling feel. Having a significant front weight bias is something you can easily feel on the street, no less the track, and I don't like it. This is my issue with Audi sedans, and why I tend to avoid them. AWD, no matter how sophisticated, can't make up for a 60/40 or worse f/r weight distribution, and while AWD mitigates the resulting understeer, it also interferes with steering feel, even on a 911 Turbo.

 

[Sheep]

No, I don't think you understand 3db's point. Transverse front engine placement is an inherently flawed design for great handling feel. Having a significant front weight bias is something you can easily feel on the street, no less the track, and I don't like it. This is my issue with Audi sedans, and why I tend to avoid them. AWD, no matter how sophisticated, can't make up for a 60/40 or worse f/r weight distribution, and while AWD mitigates the resulting understeer, it also interferes with steering feel, even on a 911 Turbo.

I'm just going to put this here...

"The addition of a manual transmission, an all-new clutch system and suspension changes yield an 88 lb. reduction in weight on the front of the TL. The weight reduction not only delivers improved performance, but also generates a more favorable front/rear weight bias. Compared to an automatic transmission equipped TL SH-AWD®, the 6-speed manual version improves weight distribution by 1-percent thus generating a 58/42 ratio versus the 5AT’s 59/41 ratio."

For a car of that size, it's very good.

SheepStar

 

[3db]

I think you need to read up on the SH-AWD System, you seem to not understand much, or anything about how it operates.

SH-AWD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll provide you with some cliff notes for the 2009 Generation TL. Note this was written before the release of the 6 speed manual.

"The fourth generation Acura TL, introduced in late 2008 as a 2009 model has two major trim levels, a front-wheel-drive version, and an upmarket SH-AWD version. Similar in layout to the Acura RL, the Acura SH-AWD TL features a 3.7L 305 hp VTEC V-6, transversely mounted front engine in the Global Midsize Platform. The 2009 model uses a five-speed automatic transmission, but Acura has also promised a new six-speed manual transmission for the 2010 model year. It remains to be seen if the 2010 model will also feature the newly announced six-speed automatic transmission featured in the prototype Acura ZDX announced at the April 2009 New York Auto Show. Unlike the Acura RL, the SH-AWD TL does not have the Acceleration Device.SH-AWD operating parameters include:

• Up to 90 percent of available torque can be transferred to the front wheels during normal cruising.
• In hard cornering and under acceleration, up to 70 percent of available torque can be directed to the rear wheels to enhance vehicle dynamics.
• Up to 100 percent of the torque sent to the rear axle can be applied to either rear wheel, depending on conditions."

Even with the automatic, if you disable the traction control you will power slide, Driven to confirm However, the sheer traction capabilities of the system makes the car turn in like a much smaller, more nimble car, power sliding is actually less fun.

SheepStar

As an engineer, I have a thorough understanding of physics and weight distribution that allows me to read beyond the BS adverstisement. So going beyond the literature, lets look at the simple fact of straight line acceleration. Under hard acceleration, the weight distribution shifts towards the rear wheels. In a FWD, this off loads the weight to the unpowered rear wheels causing the front wheels to loose grip and impede acceleration. In AWD drive system which is primarily FWD, some of the power gets transferred over the rear wheels but the weight distribution is still flawed despite and theh rear wheels still doesn't get the grip that a RWD car gets.

Nothing beats rear wheel drive handling. The only time an AWD drive system will beat the handling of a RWD is in off road rallys.

 

[gene]

Bloat? If you think your 3G TL is nimble, you must not have driven the 4G, or a broken one with no wheels. It's much lighter, tighter, faster. It's faster then BMWs and Audis in the same price range and higher. There was a video done up pitting an 09 style SH-AWD TL against an A6 or something and it bested it in a small course. Add to the fact that the TL is sized like a 5 series, and you can obviously see why it is larger then a 3 series, it's not classed with a 3 series. Say what you want about the controls, but it's really easy to figure out after a day or 2. You won't understand that in a 30 minute test drive. Also, try one with the 6 speed manual, drift hoonage.

The TLX is a TSX and TL in one, so it had to have a 4 pot. It also has standard PAWS unless you have the AWD version, which has gas pedal steering. Who cares about manuals on new cars, Automatics and DCT are faster, and better.

The RLX is not a performance sedan, but it does get to 60 in under 6 seconds. Take the new RLX Sport Hybrid and you have a 5 series eater that will still return 30+ mpg city driving, as well as much better handling with electric torque vectoring (you don't have to throttle on to help rotate through a corner). It will also drag the inside well to rotate the car as well.

As for the bold section. If you jump ship, I'll be there the day you start the thread (and you know you'll start one) titled "Car at the shop again, mechanics can't figure out the problem, and can you spare some change?"

SheepStar

A 4G TL with SHAWD is about 500lbs heavier than a 3G TL so not sure how you are coming up with it being "lighter". The SHAWD is a bit faster than a TL Type S but the base 4G TL is not.

What sucks is Acura had a winning car with the 3G TL. All they had to do was fix the interior noise issues, quit the cabin a bit, make it RWD, offer the 3.7L engine with an 8 speed auto and manual option, and it would have been a huge success as a 4G. Instead they made a bloated car that looks like a Transformer and is MUCH larger than a 3G TL despite having almost the same interior volume of a 3G. Bad design IMO.

The RLX is just not doing well at all sales wise. My local dealer was offering them $12k off sticker price to move them.

I always hear the argument about how unreliable German cars are when I step into an Acura dealer. However, I have a few friends that have had GREAT luck with Mercedes and even BMW's. Mercedes actually gets pretty high marks for reliability in CR and JD Power and BMW is improving for the most part. I owned a Volkswagen Jetta TDI for about 8 months and never had a problem with it. I traded it only to get a bigger van to meet family needs but that car was solid.

I have someone coming out tomorrow to offer me $15k for my 07 TLS with 85k miles. One thing about Acura, they hold their value! That's a good price considering I bought it used back in 09 with 10k miles for $27k. I can't fault the fact that I owned this car for 5.5 years and it only cost me $12k to own it in that time period. Not sure I can replicate that formula with a BMW or Mercedes. I'm really thinking about leasing now b/c in 2017-2018 I think there will be some solid Electric options that are both affordable and appealing. Go Tesla!

 

[gene]

No, I don't think you understand 3db's point. Transverse front engine placement is an inherently flawed design for great handling feel. Having a significant front weight bias is something you can easily feel on the street, no less the track, and I don't like it. This is my issue with Audi sedans, and why I tend to avoid them. AWD, no matter how sophisticated, can't make up for a 60/40 or worse f/r weight distribution, and while AWD mitigates the resulting understeer, it also interferes with steering feel, even on a 911 Turbo.

Amen! You nailed it. I won't consider the A4 for that very reason. After driving a BMW M235i and Porsche Cayman, I am ruined for FWD cars. Can't do them anymore.

 

[gene]

I've driven the FRS. It was an automatic (wasn't a dealer test drive), but still it was a blast. I can only imagine that the 6 speed is better. From my memory, the car felt well planted, very communicative and the brake pedal was out of this world good. Like, generation 991 Porsche 911 Carrera S good. I never thought I could achieve such a satisfying feeling by stopping. On the negative side, the interior was very cheap (FRS, BRZ might be a tad better, but not by much if any), stereo sucked, and besides getting good fuel economy, it doesn't quite have the room or utility to be a 1 car for all type of car, it's just too small.

SheepStar

Agreed that the interiors of most BMW's are quite subpar. It's what keeps my wife from liking them. Really sucks, I wish they had Audi interiors.

 

[gene]

Oh and Gene, if you paint the grill, it looks goooooood.

That is the best looking 4G TL I've seen but it looks to be modded with those rims and brake calipers. That's not a stock offering and of course adds substantial cost to the car.

 

[Sheep]

As an engineer, I have a thorough understanding of physics and weight distribution that allows me to read beyond the BS adverstisement. So going beyond the literature, lets look at the simple fact of straight line acceleration. Under hard acceleration, the weight distribution shifts towards the rear wheels. In a FWD, this off loads the weight to the unpowered rear wheels causing the front wheels to loose grip and impede acceleration. In AWD drive system which is primarily FWD, some of the power gets transferred over the rear wheels but the weight distribution is still flawed despite and theh rear wheels still doesn't get the grip that a RWD car gets.

Nothing beats rear wheel drive handling. The only time an AWD drive system will beat the handling of a RWD is in off road rallys.

Under acceleration (especially hard, off the line style) 70% of power is going to the rear wheels. It says that in my post. The weight will shift to those wheels just like a RWD car under acceleration.

SheepStar