Buy or lease... BMW or Ford...

[3db]

Here is one recall list by manufacturer;

Automakers With The Lowest (And Highest) Recall Rates - Forbes

Dam and my Hyundais are barely a year old.

1. Mercedes-Benz USA: 2.1 million recalled/5.2 million sold; 0.41 recall rate.
2. Mazda Motor Corp: 5.2 million recalled/9.4 million sold; 0.55 recall rate.
3. General Motors: 99.3 million recalled/153.2 million sold; 0.65 recall rate.
4. Nissan North America: 19.1 million recalled/26.8 million sold; 0.71 recall rate.
5. Subaru of America: 4.3 million recalled/6.0 million sold; 0.73 recall rate.
6. Kia Motors: 3.7 million recalled/4.9 million sold; 0.77 recall rate.
7. Toyota Motor Corp: 38.6 million recalled/48.1 million sold; 0.80 recall rate.
8. BMW of North America: 5.1 million recalled/5.7 million sold; 0.90 recall rate.
9. Ford Motor Co: 97.0 million recalled/104.7 million sold; 0.93 recall rate.
10. American Honda Motor Co: 31.1 million recalled/32.9 million sold; 0.94 recall rate.
11. Chrysler Group: 63.2 million recalled/63.2 million sold; 1.00 recall rate.
12. Volvo Cars of North America: 3.3 million recalled/3.1 million sold; 1.05 recall rate.
13. Volkswagen of America: 10.2 million recalled/9.7 million sold; 1.06 recall rate.
14. Mitsubishi Motors North America: 5.3 million recalled/4.8 million sold; 1.09 recall rate.
15. Hyundai Motor Co: 9.9 million recalled/8.7 million sold; 1.15 recall rate.

The biggest automotive recalls ..

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/10-largest-auto-recalls-in-history?page=2

 

[Irvrobinson]

One of your best posts yet, Alex. Keep up the great work!

 

[Irvrobinson]

My dad had a BMW dealership 20 years back before he retired. I remember them very well . We had a BMW Bavaria with the slant 6. I still remember that car very well. Nothing sounded better than that engine, especially in the upper RPMs. The interior was austere to say the least but that car handled better than Mustang, Camaro or Vette in its time. Its too bad they went all yuppy and become somewhat of a status symbol. If money were no object, I would get an M5 and go hunting for C6 corvettes.

I've owned multiple BMWs and driven numerous others, and not one could out-handle a Corvette since 1984, unfortunately. Seriously. Mustangs and Camaros, I'll give you that. As for the M5 and C6s, you better hope you find a 2005-2007 base C6. All of the others are not going to get taken down by an M5. On the other hand, far and and away my favorite BMW of all time is the Z4 M Coupe, followed by the Z3 M Coupe. Now even a 3-series is big and fat.

 

[3db]

I've owned multiple BMWs and driven numerous others, and not one could out-handle a Corvette since 1984, unfortunately. Seriously. Mustangs and Camaros, I'll give you that. As for the M5 and C6s, you better hope you find a 2005-2007 base C6. All of the others are not going to get taken down by an M5. On the other hand, far and and away my favorite BMW of all time is the Z4 M Coupe, followed by the Z3 M Coupe. Now even a 3-series is big and fat.

BMW Bavarias were produced between 1968 to 1977 and in those years, the BMW outhandled the Vette too. Seriosuly. The C6 will out handle the M5 and out accelerate it. However, imagine the suprise of the C6 owner when he thinks he can leasurely dust off a sedan. Not gonna happen without some serious work

 

[Irvrobinson]

BMW Bavarias were produced between 1968 to 1977 and in those years, the BMW outhandled the Vette too. Seriously. The C6 will out handle the M5 and out accelerate it. However, imagine the surprise of the C6 owner when he thinks he can leisurely dust off a sedan. Not gonna happen without some serious work

Alright, now I can agree.

IMO, the C7 looks like someone drew it in middle school study hall. But what do I know? The C7 is selling at about the same unit volume in the US as all of the Porsche models combined. Amazing, for such an expensive, impractical sports car.

 

[3db]

Alright, now I can agree.

IMO, the C7 looks like someone drew it in middle school study hall. But what do I know? The C7 is selling at about the same unit volume in the US as all of the Porsche models combined. Amazing, for such an expensive, impractical sports car.

I love the look of the C7. It really looks world class. However, GM really needs to rethink the dash of all Coverttes since the C1. Its so gawdy, garish, and cheap looking that it really cheapens the look of all the Vettes. Their interior style to me is their biggest down fall.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I love the look of the C7. It really looks world class. However, GM really needs to rethink the dash of all Coverttes since the C1. Its so gawdy, garish, and cheap looking that it really cheapens the look of all the Vettes. Their interior style to me is their biggest down fall.

I must be such a dinosaur; I like swoopy better than edgy. Agree on the fugliness of the C4 interiors, and the cheapness of the C5/C6 interiors, though the C5/C6 gauges were some of the most useful and readable in the industry. The seats always sucked too.

Funny story... my wife had a 2003 C5 Z06 for several years, and every so often I'd drive it to work. The building I worked in had glass stairwells, and since I parked the bright yellow Z06 right up front it was easily visible from the stairwell. I was walking up the stairs one morning and there were two women looking out the window and clearly discussing my wife's car. They were so busy talking they didn't notice me approach, and one said to another, "Jeez, with that silly color, I wonder what he's compensating for?" And they giggled. I startled them when I quietly said, "Well, that's my wife's car and she picked the color, and I don't think she's compensating for anything." They were so surprised they just stood there, so I finished climbing the stairs to the next floor. Google Glasses would have been so useful at that moment to capture it for my wife.

 

[Midwesthonky]

I must be such a dinosaur; I like swoopy better than edgy. Agree on the fugliness of the C4 interiors, and the cheapness of the C5/C6 interiors, though the C5/C6 gauges were some of the most useful and readable in the industry. The seats always sucked too.

I agree with swoopy over edgy. It's one reason I don't like the new Cadillacs. I just don't like the styling. Reminds me of the steel-plate armored cars in the Mad-Max movies. It's also why I can't get all excited about Lamborghinis. I'd take a free one, but they don't get my heart beating like other cars that have styling that appeal to me. Same for the latest Camaro. To edgy/sharp lines for my taste. May perform great, but the style doesn't work for me.

I am picky about the styling though. I wouldn't turn down a free Ferrari, but I think the last 10 years of Ferrari design have been very bland and uninspiring. Fast, yes. Inspiring, no.

Sigh...I'm 40. I need a crisis car. Yeah, I definitely need a crisis car.

 

[jliedeka]

We both love the Porsche Cayman S but too damn pricey and I fear the maintenance costs.

I'm sure the maintenance isn't cheap but have you considered a used one? They're practically giving them away.

Also, recall numbers don't tell the whole story. My '03 Santa Fe got a recall because the sticker on the door for tire pressure had a mistake. They mailed me a new sticker.

Jim

 

[3db]

I'm sure the maintenance isn't cheap but have you considered a used one? They're practically giving them away.

Also, recall numbers don't tell the whole story. My '03 Santa Fe got a recall because the sticker on the door for tire pressure had a mistake. They mailed me a new sticker.

Jim

Getting the type of recall data is above my pay grade.

 

[gene]

I love the look of the C7. It really looks world class. However, GM really needs to rethink the dash of all Coverttes since the C1. Its so gawdy, garish, and cheap looking that it really cheapens the look of all the Vettes. Their interior style to me is their biggest down fall.

I usually like Corvettes but their latest body style looks very cheap and plasticy to me now. They look like a supped up Camaro. I would take a Porsche Cayman S over any Corvette but of course the Porsche is more money

 

[3db]

I usually like Corvettes but their latest body style looks very cheap and plasticy to me now. They look like a supped up Camaro. I would take a Porsche Cayman S over any Corvette but of course the Porsche is more money

Its kinda hard to let go eh? I want a BMW M5 with the sports package. Any sports sedan that will do 0 -60 in 3.8 second and quarter mile in 11.7 seconds and carry 4 adults and the groceries has got my respect.

 

[Hi Ho]

Wow this thread really took off while I was off seriously considering whether to buy a car at all and dealing with work. I've decided I should not buy a car now since I'm really getting sick of my job and may move out of state and who knows what financial position I'll be in. I don't want to owe money on a car. I keep swinging back and forth between practicality and lust. I would love a BMW but it's pricey and I would only ever consider leasing one because I would not like to be responsible for repairs and maintenance. Then there's the Mazda 6. Every time I see one on the road I just can't help but notice. Pictures don't really do it justice. It's not as fast or as quiet as the Fusion but it handles better and I think they just nailed the exterior styling.

 

[Irvrobinson]

At least Mazda got rid of those silly smiley-face grills that made their cars look like a character in Cars.

 

[Hi Ho]

^ Exactly. The previous generation Mazda 3 was hideous. The 2014 is very nice and I like it a lot but I still think the 6 is a bit better looking.

 

[Sheep]

Oh Dear lord the misinformation in this thread is RRRRRRRRRIDICULOUS.

I work for an Acura dealer, and it's owned by the largest auto group in Canada (~60 dealerships). Let me add a couple pennies.

First off, wise move not buying yet. Secondly, leasing is only good for a car you don't want to own long term (IE: BMW, anything German really. German Engineering is a saying and only a saying, it means nothing as far as reliability goes - google BMW Vanos system). If you want to own it, buy/finance. We have a Mazda 3 as well (GFs car) and it's rock solid. 2007, Base sedan with the 4 speed auto. Does it rustle my jimmies? Hell no, but it's reliable enough and has enough features to keep you satisfied as it serves out its appliance life (base stereo is bangin' too).

Because my Auto Group has so many brands (ranging from Honda to Bentley), I have had the pleasure to pick brains and get some seat time in cars.

If you're looking at a Ford Fusion, get a Honda Accord. It has a 6 speed manual for the V6 and I4, and has a much more reliable drive line (Ford turbo's are not doing so good). Mazda 6 is a close second.

If you want more Luxury, the TL is actually a brilliant car. Anyone who has made comments about it pulling around in FWD trim, you bought the wrong one. The AWD system in them is far better then anything out there (including Quattro). The TLX is about to hit dealers, so the old one should be a good deal depending on the trim you get. As for the comment of a BMW being more "fun", you obviously haven't driven either of them. The TL SH-AWD will spank any comparably priced BMW, Audi, and Mercedes.

Infiniti makes some ok cars (Q50), but I have never been a fan of their interiors, especially their leather.

Lexus has gone mad, and predator faced everything in their lineup. Not bad cars, but the new IS is underpinned by a car that first went on sale in 2006, which was designed 5 years prior to that.

I wouldn't touch a Dodge, or a Chevy. Don't think I need to explain that one.

The Korean cars have good bang for the buck, but I can't stand poorly thought out interiors. Plastic chrome and idiotic instrument and control placement makes them unlivable for me.

I haven't driven a Current mazda 3, but it's a good compromise as far as features, finish, fun, and finances are concerned.

If anyone has any serious questions about car problems or brand quirks as me, I talk to other dealers all day at work.

SheepStar
People still leave unsigned rep? Wuss.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Oh Dear lord the misinformation in this thread is RRRRRRRRRIDICULOUS.

Just out of curiosity, what misinformation would that be?

 

[gene]

Oh Dear lord the misinformation in this thread is RRRRRRRRRIDICULOUS.

I work for an Acura dealer, and it's owned by the largest auto group in Canada (~60 dealerships). Let me add a couple pennies.

First off, wise move not buying yet. Secondly, leasing is only good for a car you don't want to own long term (IE: BMW, anything German really. German Engineering is a saying and only a saying, it means nothing as far as reliability goes - google BMW Vanos system). If you want to own it, buy/finance. We have a Mazda 3 as well (GFs car) and it's rock solid. 2007, Base sedan with the 4 speed auto. Does it rustle my jimmies? Hell no, but it's reliable enough and has enough features to keep you satisfied as it serves out its appliance life (base stereo is bangin' too).

Because my Auto Group has so many brands (ranging from Honda to Bentley), I have had the pleasure to pick brains and get some seat time in cars.

If you're looking at a Ford Fusion, get a Honda Accord. It has a 6 speed manual for the V6 and I4, and has a much more reliable drive line (Ford turbo's are not doing so good). Mazda 6 is a close second.

If you want more Luxury, the TL is actually a brilliant car. Anyone who has made comments about it pulling around in FWD trim, you bought the wrong one. The AWD system in them is far better then anything out there (including Quattro). The TLX is about to hit dealers, so the old one should be a good deal depending on the trim you get. As for the comment of a BMW being more "fun", you obviously haven't driven either of them. The TL SH-AWD will spank any comparably priced BMW, Audi, and Mercedes.

Infiniti makes some ok cars (Q50), but I have never been a fan of their interiors, especially their leather.

Lexus has gone mad, and predator faced everything in their lineup. Not bad cars, but the new IS is underpinned by a car that first went on sale in 2006, which was designed 5 years prior to that.

I wouldn't touch a Dodge, or a Chevy. Don't think I need to explain that one.

The Korean cars have good bang for the buck, but I can't stand poorly thought out interiors. Plastic chrome and idiotic instrument and control placement makes them unlivable for me.

I haven't driven a Current mazda 3, but it's a good compromise as far as features, finish, fun, and finances are concerned.

If anyone has any serious questions about car problems or brand quirks as me, I talk to other dealers all day at work.

SheepStar

Man I have been an Acura fan for years. I had an 05 TL and now have an 07 TL Type S. I've driven EVERY Acura including the newer hideous looking TL's. The newer 4G TL's are good cars but they are very bloated and the controls confusing. The SH-AWD version doesn't even come close to how a BMW 335i Sport drives or handles. The M235i blows the doors off anything Acura makes. Sorry to tell you that man. Granted BMW's are more money but they are a true drivers car.

The new TLX is very uninspiring to me. FWD on an almost $40k car is unacceptable to me. Lack of a gear shifter, lack of rear exhausts, ugly rims, bland styling. Go check out Acurazine.com, Acura fans are NOT liking this car and it hasn't even been released yet. The RLX has been a dismal failure as well. Even KIA has RWD now. I don't understand why Acura doesn't get this?!?

I really wanted to continue with Acura but the beak, and car bloat over the last 4 years has moved me away from the brand.

Audi, Mercedes and BMW are far more appealing cars to me now. Consumer Reports continues to rate all the new Audi's top of the class and Mercedes is right up there on many of their models in reliability and especially owner satisfaction.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I want a BMW M5 with the sports package. Any sports sedan that will do 0 -60 in 3.8 second and quarter mile in 11.7 seconds and carry 4 adults and the groceries has got my respect.

I hear you, but the new M5 is bigger and heavier than an X3. BMW got the recipe confused on the 5-series. At least the M4 is pretty good, though I think I'd rather have an E46 M3 if they still made 'em.

 

[Sheep]

I'm not so sure you're being foolish. I'm not a convertible fan myself, but my wife is partial to them. I can't think of a better four seat convertible than the 335i at the moment. There's far more difference between how a 335i drives and a G37S drives than there is between how any two decent $2K speakers sound, yet on this forum we go on and on about speakers. Let the curmudgeons stick to their driving appliances.

if you're going for a used 335i I'd make sure you can get the service records. The good thing about BMWs is that you can often find pampered examples that are maintained beyond BMW recommendations, which is actually a very good thing. IMO, since BMW started including maintenance for the first four years they've had very sketchy schedules. The biggest risk with a BMW has been automatic transmissions. If you're getting a manual transmission that eliminates perhaps the worst exposure. If you must have an automatic I'd stay away from high-mileage examples. The cooling systems also tend to be under-engineered, so it's a good idea to consider water pumps and radiators maintenance items at 60K miles or so.

I've always been partial to German cars and Corvettes. Of course, I do all of my own maintenance and most repairs, so things that cost other people a lot cost me a lot less. As for Japanese cars, a former neighbor of mine used to own a rather large independent Honda and Toyota repair shop in San Diego, and he became wealthy. He would always chide me about owning such unreliable cars (his view, not mine), and said that I should buy a Honda, like his prized S2000. I once asked him, if Hondas are so reliable and almost never break, why are you so rich?

Reliability is one of those things that can be hard to put a finger on. People think wearing out tires and brake pads means a car is unreliable. A car should see a mechanic twice a year for inspection and normal servicing. It should not see a mechanic 3 times in a year for a high pressure fuel pump breaking. Still want a 135/235/435/335 BMW? How about the 30,000km oil change intervals that grenade engines a year and a half after taking ownership (worked with a service advisor from BMW before, it was like clockwork).

I'm a mechanical and composite engineer by training (scary, right?!) ..so..I'll offer my advice:

Mechanically, both cars are very solid. I would not worry about the effects of a turbocharger on the BMW, and rattles in the Ford's tend to be from the thermal expansion and contraction of the plastic panels. I'd rather be in the BMW in a car accident, and I'd rather drive the BMW. The electronics in the BMW's are annoying though, too many dings and menus and stuff getting in the way - but, that's just my personal opinion.

..
From the 'business' end:

Ford has had some really aggressive lease deals - and the cars aren't bad. They work.. my sisters had good luck with her Fusion and its cheap.

BMW, three or four years ago, had some amazing lease deals: you could get a well equipped 3 series for like 300/mo, they figured an 83% residual. Was a sweet deal then, but, obviously when the cars came back BMW had over estimated their resale value and took a huge hit - ending the stupidly low lease deals on them.

Mercedes has the CLA now as well, might be worth checking out. Not sure how it compares in price with the BMW your looking at, but, think they target the same market.

BMW's are not reliable. They just aren't. If you can afford the stuff they will throw at you (and THEY WILL) they are fantastically fun to drive. I had a 128i for a week and it was the best week of driving in my life. However, I will never sign over that much cash just to keep dumping more in when everything goes wrong.

I looked into the CLA and I think it offers the worst of the Ford and BMW. You get the unreliability of a German car with the rattles and comparatively cheap interior. If I were buying a daily driver, I would probably get an Acura TL. It's not as exciting as a BMW but it's pretty posh, cheaper, and more reliable.

Jim

The TL is just as exciting. Go test drive one, it doesn't cost you anything but some time.

Re the electronic steering versus hydraulic... 'maybe' it's not as in tune with the road, but, sure saves weight in parts and fluid. Porsche got electronic steering right imo.



Yes!

Also air conditioning and electronics. Now, with all the integration - electronic problems are becoming costly because they replace the entire unit (computer with the audio and display firmware, frontend/GUI, GPS system, temperature control units, etc).



I think for people who want to get from A to B... German, American, Japanese... they're mostly a safe bet provided the terms of the lease are good. Buying, it changes things.

Also, if your the mechanic type, can save some money, but some repairs now simply require specialized equipment to diagnose.. I agree with your pro-active approach on oil. It's cheap and good for the engine. I also think checking lubrication of suspension parts is essential, as, a simple bearing can wreck havoc on an entire system.

They put electric steering in to stop parasitic losses in the engine from spinning the PS pump.

TBH: I visited NY 2014 Autoshow and most mercs were open. The only one which truly felt luxurious inside was S550 (Far from stock I assume with another 150k in options)
Not big fan of neither BMW or Ford interiors.

Bottom line: If you want a reliable car - get a Japanese one. Acura or Infinity are good choices.
Do keep in mind that Acura TL-S with front wheel drive (AWD is optional) is not very stable - too much power on the front axel

No it doesn't. Besides the massive weight of the V6, and the large tires, it doesn't torque steer nearly as badly as you would think (Mazdaspeed 3 is ten times worse).

Have you driven either car? You need to test drive any car that interests you. Once you've test driven them all then you can go after a great deal for the car you want. I found I love to drive Mazdas more than any other car. If I were buying a sports car I'd probably be looking at a used RX8.

By and RX8 to sign away all your money into fuel costs. A friend had one for a few days, and if you forget about the cold start flooding problems (which is very easy to do), if you go easy you'll be lucky to get better then 20L/100kms. From a 1.3L engine.

i own a 2007 Acura TL Type S in kinetic Blue. The car is solid and 100% reliable and quite a looker. FWD does get on my nerves at times especially when accelerating on turns or going over bumps. I recently drove a BMW M235i and fell in love but my wife hates the interior and even the exterior

We both love the Porsche Cayman S but too damn pricey and I fear the maintenance costs.

I absolutely hate the styling of all new Acura's and the damn predator grille in the new Lexus cars.

So I am still driving my 07 Acura with 84k+ miles waiting for a sporty stylish sedan to upgrade to.

I would never buy a Ford or GM. Hate the styling of both. Damn I'm picky.

Go drive one Gene. Don't trust 1 sense when you have 4 more at your disposal (although tasting probably won't help).

Here is one recall list by manufacturer;

Automakers With The Lowest (And Highest) Recall Rates - Forbes

Dam and my Hyundais are barely a year old.

1. Mercedes-Benz USA: 2.1 million recalled/5.2 million sold; 0.41 recall rate.
2. Mazda Motor Corp: 5.2 million recalled/9.4 million sold; 0.55 recall rate.
3. General Motors: 99.3 million recalled/153.2 million sold; 0.65 recall rate.
4. Nissan North America: 19.1 million recalled/26.8 million sold; 0.71 recall rate.
5. Subaru of America: 4.3 million recalled/6.0 million sold; 0.73 recall rate.
6. Kia Motors: 3.7 million recalled/4.9 million sold; 0.77 recall rate.
7. Toyota Motor Corp: 38.6 million recalled/48.1 million sold; 0.80 recall rate.
8. BMW of North America: 5.1 million recalled/5.7 million sold; 0.90 recall rate.
9. Ford Motor Co: 97.0 million recalled/104.7 million sold; 0.93 recall rate.
10. American Honda Motor Co: 31.1 million recalled/32.9 million sold; 0.94 recall rate.
11. Chrysler Group: 63.2 million recalled/63.2 million sold; 1.00 recall rate.
12. Volvo Cars of North America: 3.3 million recalled/3.1 million sold; 1.05 recall rate.
13. Volkswagen of America: 10.2 million recalled/9.7 million sold; 1.06 recall rate.
14. Mitsubishi Motors North America: 5.3 million recalled/4.8 million sold; 1.09 recall rate.
15. Hyundai Motor Co: 9.9 million recalled/8.7 million sold; 1.15 recall rate.

The biggest automotive recalls ..

10 Largest Auto Recalls in History - Page 2 - MSN Autos

Recalls. Let me explain what a recall is. FREE FIX. "Oh no, the car company made an error designing one of the most complicated things I own, and now is offering to fix their screw up free of charge? How dare they!". Chevy has only started heavy recalls now, but the old sunfires and cavaliers used to have relays under the dash that would catch fire. No recalls on those sunshits? Yep, reliable cars.

Just out of curiosity, what misinformation would that be?

That better?

SheepStar