AV receiver advice

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Bingo! It is indeed the fortunate few that can design a room around their HT. I would dearly love to build a house with that in mind from the beginning. But alas, it was not my lot. So I do what I can with what I have. Yes, agarwalro, it is my loss. WAF? Yes. Ignorant? Perhaps. It depends on who you ask.

Everything is connected or related in life. Marriage, family, career, hobby, etc.

I don't care what system or HT room or house or car I have. Everything is material. I can't be happy if my wife and family aren't happy.

 

[bwspot]

I went to Best Buy and listened to Marantz sr6008, sr5008, sr7007 and Denon x4000. I used my iphone as a source connected to auxiliary input with Pure Direct turned on all receivers. Not a perfect source, but at least same DAC was used and I could concentrate on the analog performance of all receivers.
The speakers connected:
Bowers and Wilkins - 6-1/2" 3-Way Floorstanding Speaker
Model: CM9GB
First, I listened to the Dave Brubeck Quartet - Time out, Take Five song.
I immediately noticed the difference in high tones between Marantz and Denon.
Marantz definitely sounded a little softer. Very easy to hear it when listening to the hi-hat sound or the snare jazz brush sound. I could not hear much more difference besides the above.

Next, I listened to, Ultimate Demonstration Disc: Chesky Records' Guide to Critical Listening.
I concentrated on track 29:
"Best Of Chesky Jazz and More Audiophile Tests, Volume 2"

I do play on drums a little so I am familiar with the sounds it can produce.
I played the song many times on all receivers to make sure I can notice the difference if any.
Sr6008 and sr5008 sounded exactly the same, so I was just testing with Sr5008, Sr7007 and X4000.

The most surprising for me was the SR7007.
The X4000 killed it. The kick in the song felt so natural on X4000, that I could feel the drummer sitting there and hitting it.
It was so pure compared to SR7007. SR7007 kick was too soft and not realistic.
Again, I was testing all in PURE DIRECT mode.
The high tones on Denon sounded definitely much brighter but very natural.
At times I felt like Marantz was easier on the ear, but I also liked the purity of the X4000.
The Marantz sounded very delicate and detailed. (at times it felt too delicate and some instruments would lose its natural sound)
I liked it a lot, but I also liked the Denon and it was very hard to decide between the two.
After going back and forth I decided to pass on sr7007 and limited my choices to sr5008 and x4000.
There was something wrong with the Sr7007 sound. At times it felt pure but somehow unrealistic.
The kick on sr5008 sounded very similar to x4000 but maybe few notches softer, but definitely better than sr7007 and almost identical to X4000.

I finished my testing with the "Spanish Harlem" vocal song from same cd.
Both receivers sounded very nice and it was difficult to tell the difference.

In summary, it seems like there is a difference between Marantz and Denon and all the claims about Marantz being soft or warm and Denon being bright are valid. I personally could hear the difference.

Now, I got the problem and need to decide which receiver I should go with. Sr5008 or X4000.
It seems like if I really need stereo only the X4000 might be overkill, but there is something tempting in its sound. It is kind of hard to decide which should feel better or more pleasing to my ear.
I feel like I need more listening time to be 100% sure.

 

[rojo]

Unless you've devoted a lot of time, effort and money into acoustic treatments in your listening room, any perceived subtle differences in tonality between the two receivers will be thoroughly dwarfed by the difference in acoustics between the store and your house. With that in mind, make your choice based on features. If you think it's a possibility that at some point you might run dual subs to even out bass response in your room, go for the X4000. If that's not even the remotest possibility, go for the cheaper Marantz.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

 

[bwspot]

Unless you've devoted a lot of time, effort and money into acoustic treatments in your listening room, any perceived subtle differences in tonality between the two receivers will be thoroughly dwarfed by the difference in acoustics between the store and your house. With that in mind, make your choice based on features. If you think it's a possibility that at some point you might run dual subs to even out bass response in your room, go for the X4000. If that's not even the remotest possibility, go for the cheaper Marantz.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

i have listened to both receivers in same environment, (the store) not 1 at home 1 at store.

 

[rojo]

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

I can't tell the difference in Pure Direct mode if the volume is level matched for the same speakers, but everyone is different.

 

[bwspot]

I can't tell the difference in Pure Direct mode if the volume is level matched for the same speakers, but everyone is different.

For me it was easy to tell the difference and I am completely not biased towards any brand.
I made sure the levels were very close to each other.

 

[PENG]

For me it was easy to tell the difference and I am completely not biased towards any brand.
I made sure the levels were very close to each other.

You seem to have the preconception already, that Marantz offers better SQ than Denon, in that Marantz=warm and Denon=Bright. When I bought my Denon and Marantz gear in the past, I had not read anything about the so called sound signature so I was not preconditioned. Incidentally I have never found any such difference in their SQ in my own in home listening.

After reading threads like yours and others and out of curiosity, I recently pulled my old Denon out from the basement for further comparisons. After spending hours, I still do not feel it sounds any brighter or warmer than my Marantz units under pure direct and volume match conditions. I can PM you more details if you wish, but I wouldn't want to influence you any further in one direction or another, other than pointing out to you that comparison listening can be a tricky thing depending on many factors.

As ADTG mentioned many times, pure direct and volume match (within 1 dB or less if possible) is key especially if you are doing a sighted test. In my experience, doing such comparison in Best Buy is a waste of time, unless the difference between gear is truly significant, any perceived difference is not credible in their environment.

If you are to do it again, even in Bestbuy, bring someone with you to do the switching and do it blind. If you can name the brand more than say 6 out of 10 times, then you may begin to convince yourself you heard the difference. By doing it blind, you can almost eliminate the influence of preconception (from your reading from forums etc.). Make sure you volume match to within 1 dB.

Until then, you can't be sure there is really audible difference between the X4000 and the SR7007 as Placebo and hearsay are two highly influencial factors. The Denon has slightly better amp published amp specs but really virtually the same. The Marantz does show a higher output of 195W into 6 ohms vs Denon's 165W but the 195W is at 10% distortion vs the Denon's 0.7% so such difference is totally meaningless. The amp sections and the power supplies are likely identical.

 

[herbu]

For me it was easy to tell the difference and I am completely not biased towards any brand.
I made sure the levels were very close to each other.

Be very careful comparing AVRs w/ different power.

From OPRA:
"Power... comes in two flavors, "clean" and "dirty." "Dirty" power comes directly from your outlet. Apparently, that power is derived from the burning of coal, the raping of the rainforests, and carbon dioxide. That power clogs up your receiver and builds up inside of the spider of the woofer. This slows down response (or the Q) of the speaker muddying your midrange and giving the overall sound a much more vanilla rather than chocolate sound."

Perhaps this is why the Denon sounds "brighter". Check the power in the store.

 

[bwspot]

Be very careful comparing AVRs w/ different power.

From OPRA:
"Power... comes in two flavors, "clean" and "dirty." "Dirty" power comes directly from your outlet. Apparently, that power is derived from the burning of coal, the raping of the rainforests, and carbon dioxide. That power clogs up your receiver and builds up inside of the spider of the woofer. This slows down response (or the Q) of the speaker muddying your midrange and giving the overall sound a much more vanilla rather than chocolate sound."

Perhaps this is why the Denon sounds "brighter". Check the power in the store.

It was the same speakers.
Best Buy uses some I/O switching device. My assumption is that that device does not tamper the sound in any ways except natural interferences, etc.
Speakers used in the test were same, so if something built up in "the spider of the woofer" it would not matter as I was testing with same speakers.
The only thing that might be different is if that switching device changes the sound on the specific output based on the input based on how it was programmed.
For example: If input Denon ,make these changes to the sound, if Marantz make this changes.
I will visit another Magnolia location to confirm, but for me it was easy to hear the difference and I am ok with that.
I did not have to put any effort to hear the differences. It was obvious to me however as I described in previous post I liked both receivers except sr7007.

 

[PENG]

It was the same speakers.

I think we knew.

Best Buy uses some I/O switching device. My assumption is that that device does not tamper the sound in any ways except natural interferences, etc.

One way to do it is to:

- Feed both AVRs via the front analog in using splitters.
- Use the shortest possible wires
- Set both AVRs to direct (so you can see the display, such as the volume), but make sure there is no subwoofers connected.
- Set both to 'speakers large'
- Set Audyssey to off (just a check, as in direct it should already be off).

Leave both on, set their volume both to say -15, but first verify in speaker set up that the levels both both are set to zero. -15 should typically be really loud in those smallish BB HT show rooms but of course there are exceptions so you'll be the judge. You can now do the switching yourself using the mute button or some other ways quickly without the sales person messing around.

I still think you should bring someone with you, preferably someone who has good hearing sense, a music lover but have zero bias = no preconception. Let this person handle the remotes to do the switching. You just can't let the BB sales people do that for you. That way not only you get a second opinion, it also allow you to do a somewhat scientific single blind listening comparison session.

Now, volume matching using the volume display is not an accurate way even after making sure the level trims in speaker settings on both are set to zero but it is probably better than just going by your hearing sense.

I did not have to put any effort to hear the differences. It was obvious to me however as I described in previous post I liked both receivers except sr7007.

I am sure you hear the differences, but there could be something else at work. The SR7007 is a very nice unit, I find it hard to believe it would color the sound enough that you could easily tell the difference between it and the X4000. If you were to compare with their current line up, you really should be comparing the SR7008 to the AVR-4520 and the SR6008 to the X4000. Base on specs, the 7008 is closer to the 4520 whereas the X4000 is like a 6008 on steroid, i.e. it has a couple more channels (preamp only) and XT32, but for two channel listening the two are quite comparable.

 

[herbu]

so if something built up in "the spider of the woofer" it would not matter as I was testing with same speakers.

I rest my case.

 

[bwspot]

I am sure you hear the differences, but there could be something else at work. The SR7007 is a very nice unit, I find it hard to believe it would color the sound enough that you could easily tell the difference between it and the X4000. If you were to compare with their current line up, you really should be comparing the SR7008 to the AVR-4520 and the SR6008 to the X4000. Base on specs, the 7008 is closer to the 4520 whereas the X4000 is like a 6008 on steroid, i.e. it has a couple more channels (preamp only) and XT32, but for two channel listening the two are quite comparable.

Unfortunately they did not have sr7008 so I could not compare it to X4000. I personally was also surprised that the SR7007 would color the sound so much, but who knows. Maybe bad unit.
When I was doing the testing few young people entered the room and listened with me and they immediately noticed the difference.
Their impressions were very similar to mine. Denon bright and very natural. Marantz softer and very pleasant to the ear.
I did not tell them what I was looking for, I just played the song and ask for their opinions. (three young people, 2 male, 1 female)
I wish I could test those receivers at home, but would you believe me then? Probably not.
My opinions are completely neutral. I am just looking for something that would please me, but at the same time I was very curious how both Denon and Maranz sound if there is any difference between them. For, me they sound different.

 

[PENG]

My opinions are completely neutral. I am just looking for something that would please me, but at the same time I was very curious how both Denon and Maranz sound if there is any difference between them. For, me they sound different.

Again, I believe you heard what you heard but I thought there might have been something else at work. Like you said it could be something wrong of, or did (by BB inadvertently to some settings) to the SR7007. Could also be simply volume mismatch slightly that you couldn't tell by just listening.

Please also check this out (link in post# 64):

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/general-av-discussions/90640-reliability-human-senses-7.html

so that you maybe better prepared for other potential influences. Placebo effects is real and well known, but the visual effect may not be as well known.

 

[bwspot]

Again, I believe you heard what you heard but I thought there might have been something else at work. Like you said it could be something wrong of, or did (by BB inadvertently to some settings) to the SR7007. Could also be simply volume mismatch slightly that you couldn't tell by just listening.

I tried my best to make sure that the levels were very similar, but as all know this is probably the hardest part without the use of any specialized meter.

Please also check this out (link in post# 64):

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/general-av-discussions/90640-reliability-human-senses-7.html

so that you maybe better prepared for other potential influences. Placebo effects is real and well known, but the visual effect may not be as well known.

Recently when I attended the AXPOMA audio show, one of the brands was advertising the usb cable and its superiority over regular usb.
In the test they would play some song over regular usb and then they would repeat the song two times and then they would switch the cable and play the song for the third time.
The result? Impression that the song when played over better cable sounded better which i could not believe myself.

Later at home I performed a simple test where I played the same song 3 times. When I played it the 3rd time the song sounded better and clearer.

 

[PENG]

I tried my best to make sure that the levels were very similar, but as all know this is probably the hardest part without the use of any specialized meter.



Recently when I attended the AXPOMA audio show, one of the brands was advertising the usb cable and its superiority over regular usb.
In the test they would play some song over regular usb and then they would repeat the song two times and then they would switch the cable and play the song for the third time.
The result? Impression that the song when played over better cable sounded better which i could not believe myself.

Later at home I performed a simple test where I played the same song 3 times. When I played it the 3rd time the song sounded better and clearer.

Actually I do think some USB cables could be bad enough that it could degrade the sound.

 

[rojo]

I tried my best to make sure that the levels were very similar, but as all know this is probably the hardest part without the use of any specialized meter.

If you've got an Android phone and can play a test tone (pink noise or whatever) through the receivers, this SPL meter app might help for quick and dirty measurements. It won't be as accurate as a Radio Shack SPL meter, but it might be a little closer than matching by ear anyway.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

 

[bwspot]

If you've got an Android phone and can play a test tone (pink noise or whatever) through the receivers, this SPL meter app might help for quick and dirty measurements. It won't be as accurate as a Radio Shack SPL meter, but it might be a little closer than matching by ear anyway.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

Good tip. I got iphone but i found some free SPL meters. I guess the best would be to record a white noise on cd or some other generated sound and adjust the sound of both receivers to match before playing the test song.

 

[rojo]

Both receivers have a USB port iirc. You could generate test tones with audacity and export them to a flash drive, and save yourself a CD. Your flash drive needs to be formatted as fat32 for the receivers to read it I believe.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

 

[bwspot]

I went to Best Buy and listened to Marantz sr6008, sr5008, sr7007 and Denon x4000. I used my iphone as a source connected to auxiliary input with Pure Direct turned on all receivers. Not a perfect source, but at least same DAC was used and I could concentrate on the analog performance of all receivers.
The speakers connected:
Bowers and Wilkins - 6-1/2" 3-Way Floorstanding Speaker
Model: CM9GB
First, I listened to the Dave Brubeck Quartet - Time out, Take Five song.
I immediately noticed the difference in high tones between Marantz and Denon.
Marantz definitely sounded a little softer. Very easy to hear it when listening to the hi-hat sound or the snare jazz brush sound. I could not hear much more difference besides the above.

Next, I listened to, Ultimate Demonstration Disc: Chesky Records' Guide to Critical Listening.
I concentrated on track 29:
"Best Of Chesky Jazz and More Audiophile Tests, Volume 2"

I do play on drums a little so I am familiar with the sounds it can produce.
I played the song many times on all receivers to make sure I can notice the difference if any.
Sr6008 and sr5008 sounded exactly the same, so I was just testing with Sr5008, Sr7007 and X4000.

The most surprising for me was the SR7007.
The X4000 killed it. The kick in the song felt so natural on X4000, that I could feel the drummer sitting there and hitting it.
It was so pure compared to SR7007. SR7007 kick was too soft and not realistic.
Again, I was testing all in PURE DIRECT mode.
The high tones on Denon sounded definitely much brighter but very natural.
At times I felt like Marantz was easier on the ear, but I also liked the purity of the X4000.
The Marantz sounded very delicate and detailed. (at times it felt too delicate and some instruments would lose its natural sound)
I liked it a lot, but I also liked the Denon and it was very hard to decide between the two.
After going back and forth I decided to pass on sr7007 and limited my choices to sr5008 and x4000.
There was something wrong with the Sr7007 sound. At times it felt pure but somehow unrealistic.
The kick on sr5008 sounded very similar to x4000 but maybe few notches softer, but definitely better than sr7007 and almost identical to X4000.

I finished my testing with the "Spanish Harlem" vocal song from same cd.
Both receivers sounded very nice and it was difficult to tell the difference.

In summary, it seems like there is a difference between Marantz and Denon and all the claims about Marantz being soft or warm and Denon being bright are valid. I personally could hear the difference.

Now, I got the problem and need to decide which receiver I should go with. Sr5008 or X4000.
It seems like if I really need stereo only the X4000 might be overkill, but there is something tempting in its sound. It is kind of hard to decide which should feel better or more pleasing to my ear.
I feel like I need more listening time to be 100% sure.

I visited another Best Buy. This time the difference was that sr7007 sounded much better then last time I tested but definitely very warm. I listened to all receivers with pure direct mode and the usb source. All receivers volume was set to match 90db via the iphone SPL meter app with white noise signal. I can confirm 100% that Marantz is much warmer then Denon. There is no question about it. Sr7007 sounded even warmer then Sr5008. This might be due to the power differences. I could definitely feel that sound coming out of sr7007 was more powerful, but at the same time very soft, delicate and warm. Sr7007 softens everything a lot. Sr5008 sounds very similar to Denon x4000 but little warmer. With the speakers used in test (Bowers and Wilkins - 6-1/2" 3-Way Floorstanding Speaker Model: CM9GB) Denon produced the music that was the closest to Live music feel compared to Marantz that produced more softer and warmer feel sound. It seems like it is all about the taste but I actually like both sounds and would love to have both Marantz and Denon sounds combined. When listening to kick drum sound Marantz makes it sound light and soft but bass wise very deep compared to Denon when it is very strong and powerful but less bassy. (That's how I feel about it so please forgive me for my vogue description)
The high tones produced by Marantz are very soft and delicate compared to Denon, but the difference is not as big as in case of lower tones.

For me the choice is between X4000 or sr5008 (which sound is between sr7007 and X4000) or cheaper X2000.
Because I used to have Sr5003 and my speakers never sounded as warm as with the speakers in the store, I might be better off with Marantz as my speakers might be brighter (Axiom M60v2) and combination of warmer amplifier and brighter speakers might create more pleasing sound. Not sure if X4000 would not make my sound too bright.
I am also still thinking about X2000 as it was very close to X4000, but has limited features, but I just might go with cheaper receiver and upgrade at later time or just get something better now.
As with all electronics equipment there is always going to be something newer tomorrow, so its hard to ever be up to date and have the latest gear although latest is not necessary the greatest.
When it comes to built quality Marantz looks better then Denon except X4000 which looks great.

So to summarize, Marantz sound is warm and Denon is bright or not as warm or soft as Marantz. It all comes to taste.