AV receiver advice

[agarwalro]

Further, the location of tower for 2.0 may not necessarily be the best location for the optimal reproduction of bass frequencies. Subwoofers make this a non issue since they can be placed exactly at the best spot for a source of bass frequencies.

Most people just place their 2 subs on both sides of the front of the room or hidden out of sight altogether.

LOL! Just because the subs can be placed in optimal locations does not mean folk will necessarily choose them .

If someone chooses to buy a product and not use it as designed or to its full potential... like placing speakers with rear ports within inches of front wall and claiming the mid bass is boomy, sitting in a room null wondering why there is no bass from the $2000 subwoofer, or having untreated rooms with tens of thousands in electronics and speakers ... placing the subwoofer somewhere at random due to WAF, Feng Shui, ignorance... it is their loss.

 

[bwspot]

I am a bassholic and this setup is used for music and movies.. No tower in my $3.5-4K budget would have come close to the type of clean loud sound the dual EP15HPs will give me.

Towers that can do justice to the bass frequencies, meaning play loud and clean, are very expensive (since they need to have quality drivers and crossover parts, exceptional design and over engineered construction). Then they need gobs of clean power to drive them, meaning, adding dedicated amps. By comparison, bookshelf speakers that excel in treble and mid range frequencies are readily available in the $1500-2000 range. Subwoofers that excel in bass frequencies are readily available in the $1500-2000. I feel that in the $3-5K range, a 2.2 setup with bookshelf speakers and subwoofers (with good bass management) will yield better results than 2.0 towers in the same price range.

Further, the location of tower for 2.0 may not necessarily be the best location for the optimal reproduction of bass frequencies. Subwoofers make this a non issue since they can be placed exactly at the best spot for a source of bass frequencies.

When I have a dedicated home theater, the JTR Noesis 215RT ($7K/pair, play to 18Hz 128dB no sub needed) and Seaton Sound Captivator 12C ($7K/pair active tri-amp) towers would be first on my audition list.

That's a pretty cool set you are getting. For now i will stay with my M60v2 as my budget is limited now. Still need to decide on the amp. I am almost ready to pull the trigger on SR5008 (though about SR6008 too) , but still getting tempted to get X4000 for its Audyssey MultEQ XT32 feature but unfortunately cannot get a deal like you got.
Also the Sr7007 is on sale now, but not sure if it worth to get it as it is an old model.

Somehow I feel like Marantz will sound better as there is so many opinions on the web claiming that Marantz suits stereo pretty well. (but those might be too subjective opinions and I might like Denon better) True is, that I have no idea as I never listened to them side by side. I need to find a place where I could listen to them both.
I might also end up with x2000 and then upgrade at a later time.

The more I know, the harder it is to decide. (I am getting into the loop of researching and researching)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

LOL! Just because the subs can be placed in optimal locations does not mean folk will necessarily choose them .

If someone chooses to buy a product and not use it as designed or to its full potential... like placing speakers with rear ports within inches of front wall and claiming the mid bass is boomy, sitting in a room null wondering why there is no bass from the $2000 subwoofer, or having untreated rooms with tens of thousands in electronics and speakers ... placing the subwoofer somewhere at random due to WAF, Feng Shui, ignorance... it is their loss.

Yeah, but making your wife happy is more important overall.

How do you think I get all the toys?

Most people are limited regarding placement. For one, most rooms are about 16' x 18', not 25' x 30'. You add some sofas and table and TV and there's really not much choices.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's a pretty cool set you are getting. For now i will stay with my M60v2 as my budget is limited now. Still need to decide on the amp. I am almost ready to pull the trigger on SR5008 (though about SR6008 too) , but still getting tempted to get X4000 for its Audyssey MultEQ XT32 feature but unfortunately cannot get a deal like you got.
Also the Sr7007 is on sale now, but not sure if it worth to get it as it is an old model.

Somehow I feel like Marantz will sound better as there is so many opinions on the web claiming that Marantz suits stereo pretty well. (but those might be too subjective opinions and I might like Denon better) True is, that I have no idea as I never listened to them side by side. I need to find a place where I could listen to them both.
I might also end up with x2000 and then upgrade at a later time.

The more I know, the harder it is to decide. (I am getting into the loop of researching and researching)

By the time July comes around, the new models will probably come out. You will then see steep discounts on the X4000. For example the X2000 is already at 43% off. You may see the X4000 at 50% off (the previous models had 50% off as well historically).

You will regret it for sure if you don't get the X4000. The cheapest Marantz that has Audyssey XT32 + dual Sub EQ is the $2,000 model.

 

[agarwalro]

That's a pretty cool set you are getting. For now i will stay with my M60v2 as my budget is limited now. Still need to decide on the amp. I am almost ready to pull the trigger on SR5008 (though about SR6008 too) , but still getting tempted to get X4000 for its Audyssey MultEQ XT32 feature but unfortunately cannot get a deal like you got.
Also the Sr7007 is on sale now, but not sure if it worth to get it as it is an old model.

Somehow I feel like Marantz will sound better as there is so many opinions on the web claiming that Marantz suits stereo pretty well. (but those might be too subjective opinions and I might like Denon better) True is, that I have no idea as I never listened to them side by side. I need to find a place where I could listen to them both.
I might also end up with x2000 and then upgrade at a later time.

The more I know, the harder it is to decide. (I am getting into the loop of researching and researching)

Thanks man! I have so much travel coming up that I had to tell them to not ship until June 15th . Can't wait to get back and have everything set up. Keep a lookout for a writeup in the the reviews section.

The X4000 on A4L is $100 less than what I paid back then... That said, the only reason I bought it was because the speaker and subwoofer upgrade was already in the books and budgeted. If anything, they have been delayed due to other time/travel commitments or I would have had them in Q1.

The budget wisdom we instill here at AH is that the speakers should be about 60-80% of the overall budget. Closer to 60% for a 5.1 setup needing everything including TV/projector and 80% for a 2.0 setup where only speakers and AVR or pre-pro+amp are being bought. Using that paradigm, about $500-600 puts you in the sweet spot based on the Axiom M60 price of $1500.

Look at getting the X4000 or something with that level of cost only when the rest of your speakers are in place. For example, if you end up completing the Axiom surround setup, that would be a good time to look at spending close to $1000 on the AVR.

(Using the 60-80% paradigm my setup is very skewed in the wrong direction. But, the upcoming upgrade will put me right about the 80% for speakers mark. Practice what you preach and all....)

 

[bwspot]

Yep , refurbished one is now $848.88 so hard to get something else and then pray for features.
I sold my sr5003 for 350 so i only pay the difference.
With all the features at least i can learn and compare everything.

 

[bwspot]

A4L is selling SR7007 for 799 and X4000 for 849.
Lots of AVS guys still say that Denon is brighter then Marantz.
I need to check if Magnolia has is so i can compare myself.

 

[agarwalro]

Ugh! Don't put any, absolutely any, consideration in the "sound" of solid state gear. Pre-pros and amps if designed properly, when working within spec must not change the sound characteristics (unless intentional). IMO, the folks that say Denon is brighter than Marantz have no idea what they are talking about or their reasoning is flawed. I will give them a hall pass since in a different thread on AH it was mentioned that a Denon rep made the same claim.

One feature of the Yamaha AVRs that I wish Denon had, HDMI switching in standby. If I had the receiver on PS3 when it was shut down, I have to turn it on to switch to PC input, then turn it off again, to get PC video pass through. A little aggravating knowing that Yamaha does it in standby.

 

[PENG]

Somehow I feel like Marantz will sound better as there is so many opinions on the web claiming that Marantz suits stereo pretty well. (but those might be too subjective opinions and I might like Denon better) True is, that I have no idea as I never listened to them side by side. I need to find a place where I could listen to them both.

I know what you mean. Those claims are mostly from Marantz owners. D&M will tell you the same because they frequent those forums and therefore leant to tell people what they like to hear.

I happen to have owned 4 Denon AVRs, two Marantz prepros, one Marantz preamp and two Marantz power amps in the past 8 to 9 years, and I can tell you without reservation that even my cheapest Denon don't sound bright and my most expensive Marantz separates don't sound warm. In my setups, bright, warm, or anything in between is a function of the quality of the source media.

Since you seem to have formed a bias towards believing Marantz must sound better for music, regardless that is baseless, hearsay, or factual, you really should go for the Marantz. Their prices are actually quite comparable as long as you compare the X4000 with the SR6008 and the 4520 with the SR7008. The Denon may even costs a little more.

If you go with Denon now, you may end up wondering if you should have gotten a Marantz, everytime you feel something don't sound right regardless of the real root cause. Why would you even consider Denon anyway, is it just for the XT32?

 

[bwspot]

I know what you mean. Those claims are mostly from Marantz owners. D&M will tell you the same because they frequent those forums and therefore leant to tell people what they like to hear.

I happen to have owned 4 Denon AVRs, two Marantz prepros, one Marantz preamp and two Marantz power amps in the past 8 to 9 years, and I can tell you without reservation that even my cheapest Denon don't sound bright and my most expensive Marantz separates don't sound warm. In my setups, bright, warm, or anything in between is a function of the quality of the source media.

Since you seem to have formed a bias towards believing Marantz must sound better for music, regardless that is baseless, hearsay, or factual, you really should go for the Marantz. Their prices are actually quite comparable as long as you compare the X4000 with the SR6008 and the 4520 with the SR7008. The Denon may even costs a little more.

If you go with Denon now, you may end up wondering if you should have gotten a Marantz, everytime you feel something don't sound right regardless of the real root cause. Why would you even consider Denon anyway, is it just for the XT32?

Yes it is just for XT32, but it might be cool to play with it and see what difference it makes. I do love opinion of people like you or others in this forum. I really changes my view and helps me a lot to make my choices and understand more. I wish i could have an opportunity to hear both receivers and compare. The only option would be just to get both and return one, but I just don't like to be that customer. I am not biased towards Marantz that much. If i was i would already purchase the replacement. It just pisses me off that so many people say that. Reps from Accessories4less, Denon reps, Marantz rep, and all the forums out there,not counting the BS stores. I am amazed that people turned into believing that this is true. Based on what? I usually believe that there is always some true if there is so many claims about it, but i might be wrong. The best is to turn into some engineer and who can easily explaining the truth. I am currently studying sound waves and I am amazed that those who buy super expansive equipment claim to hear up to 20000Hz or more, but at the same time those rich people are usually older and are already limited in their hearing to probably 15000 - 16000 or less. I myself can hear only up to 18400Hz. (I tested myself with the sound generator)

 

[PENG]

Yes it is just for XT32, but it might be cool to play with it and see what difference it makes. I do love opinion of people like you or others in this forum. I really changes my view and helps me a lot to make my choices and understand more. I wish i could have an opportunity to hear both receivers and compare. The only option would be just to get both and return one, but I just don't like to be that customer. I am not biased towards Marantz that much. If i was i would already purchase the replacement. It just pisses me off that so many people say that. Reps from Accessories4less, Denon reps, Marantz rep, and all the forums out there,not counting the BS stores. I am amazed that people turned into believing that this is true. Based on what? I usually believe that there is always some true if there is so many claims about it, but i might be wrong. The best is to turn into some engineer and who can easily explaining the truth. I am currently studying sound waves and I am amazed that those who buy super expansive equipment claim to hear up to 20000Hz or more, but at the same time those rich people are usually older and are already limited in their hearing to probably 15000 - 16000 or less. I myself can hear only up to 18400Hz. (I tested myself with the sound generator)

You may be generous about people's hearing. I think even not so old people will not have flat hearing curve from 20 to 10K Hz. I also believe most people's hearing curve are much worse than that of mid range speaker let along AVRs such ast those you are considering.

People really should just go with gear with good specs, lab measurements and not worry about subjective, hearsay/Placebo induced talks. Professional reviewers and others will always tell us that specs and measurements are no substitute for actually listening to your gear but that IMO is only true to some extent, and a very limited extent.

Regarding XT32, I do believe if you do everything right, the software could potentially do what they claim to do regardless of whether you like the sound in the end. For example, some people prefer much more bass than others, no room EQ can predict what everyone's personal preferences are. With bass though, it is easy to do as you can just increase the level by a few dB after the fact, but in terms of overall tonal balance one's only choice is to bypass it. I think that's why Audyssey allows you to have Audyssey on but have L/R on bypass.

 

[bwspot]

You may be generous about people's hearing. I think even not so old people will not have flat hearing curve from 20 to 10K Hz. I also believe most people's hearing curve are much worse than that of mid range speaker let along AVRs such ast those you are considering.

People really should just go with gear with good specs, lab measurements and not worry about subjective, hearsay/Placebo induced talks. Professional reviewers and others will always tell us that specs and measurements are no substitute for actually listening to your gear but that IMO is only true to some extent, and a very limited extent.

Regarding XT32, I do believe if you do everything right, the software could potentially do what they claim to do regardless of whether you like the sound in the end. For example, some people prefer much more bass than others, no room EQ can predict what everyone's personal preferences are. With bass though, it is easy to do as you can just increase the level by a few dB after the fact, but in terms of overall tonal balance one's only choice is to bypass it. I think that's why Audyssey allows you to have Audyssey on but have L/R on bypass.

Interesting. I did not know you could have Audyssey running on all except L/R channels. I personally did not notice any improvement in stereo sound with my sr5003 and Audyssey. Thais why I always have in on pure direct. For me this was the cleanest sound i could get.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Interesting. I did not know you could have Audyssey running on all except L/R channels. I personally did not notice any improvement in stereo sound with my sr5003 and Audyssey. Thais why I always have in on pure direct. For me this was the cleanest sound i could get.

Yeah, if you use subwoofers and don't want to EQ the Front Left & Right speakers, you can use Audyssey Bypass L/R + Dynamic EQ (assuming your AVR has this function).

That's what I do. So I don't use Audyssey Room EQ for the Front Mains. I just use Sub EQ + Dynamic EQ.

 

[bwspot]

How, in your opinion av receivers compare to integrated amplifiers? Lets say I ditch the av option and go with some integrated amp like NAD C326BEE plus some network player that would allow me to connect blue player and tv digitally would i gain anything in terms of sound quality or all those differences between integrated amp and av are not worth the hassle?

 

[PENG]

How, in your opinion av receivers compare to integrated amplifiers? Lets say I ditch the av option and go with some integrated amp like NAD C326BEE plus some network player that would allow me to connect blue player and tv digitally would i gain anything in terms of sound quality or all those differences between integrated amp and av are not worth the hassle?

Base on the C326BEE's published specs:

Signal/Noise ratio >94dB (A-weighted, ref. 1W) >110dB (A-weighted, ref. 50W, volume set for 2V input) Frequency response ± 0.2dB (ref. 20Hz - 20kHz, Tone Defeat ON)
10Hz – 65kHz (ref. -3dB)
Channel separation 1kHz >80dB
10kHz >70dB


Continuous output power into 8Ω and 4Ω (Stereo) >50W (ref. rated THD, 20Hz-20kHz, both channels driven)
Rated THD (CCIF IMD, DIM 100) <0.009% (ref. 20Hz - 20kHz)

Clipping power >65 W (ref. 1 kHz 1% THD)
IHF dynamic power - 8 Ω 100 W
4 Ω 150 W
2 Ω 200 W

You are probably better off with a Yamaha RX-A 2000 series or higher, or a Denon X4000, 4311, or 4520. So I would say no there won't be gain in terms of SQ if you go with this particular NAD vs a good solid mid range AVR. However, as they say, you may want to take a listen for yourself. Specs are are good reference and provide a starting point but you may still want to do some listening and find out for yourself.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How, in your opinion av receivers compare to integrated amplifiers?

IMO, AVRs are usually better than Integrated amps. In direct mode, you probably won't hear any difference. But AVRs have processors, Sub EQ, and DEQ that can actually improve the sound quality over simple Direct Mode.

 

[bwspot]

Base on the C326BEE's published specs:

Signal/Noise ratio >94dB (A-weighted, ref. 1W) >110dB (A-weighted, ref. 50W, volume set for 2V input) Frequency response ± 0.2dB (ref. 20Hz - 20kHz, Tone Defeat ON)
10Hz – 65kHz (ref. -3dB)
Channel separation 1kHz >80dB
10kHz >70dB


Continuous output power into 8Ω and 4Ω (Stereo) >50W (ref. rated THD, 20Hz-20kHz, both channels driven)
Rated THD (CCIF IMD, DIM 100) <0.009% (ref. 20Hz - 20kHz)

Clipping power >65 W (ref. 1 kHz 1% THD)
IHF dynamic power - 8 Ω 100 W
4 Ω 150 W
2 Ω 200 W

You are probably better off with a Yamaha RX-A 2000 series or higher, or a Denon X4000, 4311, or 4520. So I would say no there won't be gain in terms of SQ if you go with this particular NAD vs a good solid mid range AVR. However, as they say, you may want to take a listen for yourself. Specs are are good reference and provide a starting point but you may still want to do some listening and find out for yourself.

yes, when i saw the specs i though the same, but some swear about superiority of those stereo systems. I guess people are not comparing apples to apples, therefore causing more confusion.
I plan to go to musicdirect store to listen to few.

 

[PENG]

yes, when i saw the specs i though the same, but some swear about superiority of those stereo systems. I guess people are not comparing apples to apples, therefore causing more confusion.
I plan to go to musicdirect store to listen to few.

My guess is that they bought in to the myth, BS, then after the fact, they are now naturally depending it. Or they convinced themselves that after spending the money, separates must better. Many of us own both separates and AVRs and in many (not all) cases found no such superiority. We keep telling you this and you seem to keep wanting to go in that direction. That's why as I said before you may as well just pull the trigger on separates, or you will end up second guessing and/or with buyer remorse.

Now if you can do some in home comparison of your target AVRs and separate systems, then you can make an informed decision that you can live with.

If you are looking for integrated amp that are truly superior at least in terms of specs, go with something like this. http://www.hegel.com/products/integrated/h300

 

[PENG]

It just pisses me off that so many people say that. Reps from Accessories4less, Denon reps, Marantz rep, and all the forums out there,not counting the BS stores.

Since you mentioned Denon reps, Marantz reps, you got me curious. Also I think I might just sell my separate pair and go back to an AVR so I ask D&M and was told there won't be any audible difference. I've got it in writing now, not that I needed it in writing as I already know the right answer regardless of what they were going to tell me.

 

[herbu]

Yeah, but making your wife happy is more important overall.

How do you think I get all the toys?

Most people are limited regarding placement. For one, most rooms are about 16' x 18', not 25' x 30'. You add some sofas and table and TV and there's really not much choices.

Bingo! It is indeed the fortunate few that can design a room around their HT. I would dearly love to build a house with that in mind from the beginning. But alas, it was not my lot. So I do what I can with what I have. Yes, agarwalro, it is my loss. WAF? Yes. Ignorant? Perhaps. It depends on who you ask.