Need help picking, and laying out a room

[Rowdy S13]

Hey fuzz, don't read any alternate intentions into this question, as I'm looking to learn something and this is seems as good a place to ask as any. Do you agree with the advice offered by Polk about the appropriate placements of bipole and dipole surrounds, or do you reckon it's OK to use bipole or direct-facing bookshelfs as side surrounds?

I think the issue with the advice from Polk is that it is in reference to a 5.1 set up, and not a 7.1 (or more). Think if you overlay those two images, then they would say to have the dipole/bipole to the sides, and direct to the rear which makes sense. The dipole/bipole should in theory have a more diffused sound, and be harder to pinpoint in the space. The rears can be directional (in my opinion) because they would be further from your ears thus having some time for the sound to blend a bit more when needed. There are arguments on both sides that think they should all be directional, or they should all be dipole/bipole types.

I will let actual experts put in their two cents though. I only know from reading since I have no experience with dipole/bipole speakers.


Sean

 

[fuzz092888]

Hey fuzz, don't read any alternate intentions into this question, as I'm looking to learn something and this is seems as good a place to ask as any. Do you agree with the advice offered by Polk about the appropriate placements of bipole and dipole surrounds, or do you reckon it's OK to use bipole or direct-facing bookshelfs as side surrounds?

I'm not I believe in a full 7.X surround setup for movies and that the surround channels are only slightly less important than the fronts. Many disagree with that standpoint, but then again I'm guessing most of those who disagree don't want full reference playback. They're experiences have lead them to that conclusion, my experiences have lead me to mine and there ain't nothin' wrong with that. Right now I use height channels, but that has been mixed. Using bookshelves and bipoles as side surrounds is fine. Again, each persons experience with this will be different, but I've tried bookshelves and the bipoles I currently use as side surrounds and I like the bipoles better. I don't feel that I lose resolution, imaging, or detail, but then again my side surrounds cost as much as some peoples front L/R. I'm not saying just because they cost more, they perform better, I'm just saying I paid for the level of performance I got. Many people will say that using bookshelves as side surrounds is better because you'll get better accuracy and that the sound from a bipole will sound muddy or lack detail. I don't feel that mine do, but I have heard bipole surrounds that I wouldn't touch with somebody else's pole let along my own ten foot pole p ) so I get where they're coming from.

 

[rojo]

LOL, I like the razor reference I could always go 5.1 still, and maybe step up the speakers (at least the fronts) but 7.2 sounds like it would be awesome! Hell I haven't even had a 5.1 set up in YEARS, so anything at this point sounds pretty awesome!

Lets argue speakers for a while shall we! Lets say the budget is MAX $1,500 for all of the speakers not including the subs. What would be your selection for this room with that budget. Must be at least 5.X but can go all the way to 11 if you want Ready, GO!


Sean

2x MB Quart Alexxa towers
1x MB Quart Vera center
+ $200 freight shipping = $1245

Mix and match Fluance bipoles / NXG Pro 4.1 as appropriate (Fluance bipoles for the rear surrounds, NXG for the front height and front width, and I'm not sure what dipoles on the sides. Maybe go with fuzz's experience and say bipoles are fine? Grain of salt: I haven't heard the Fluance speakers yet, but I will have in a couple of days. afterlife2 really seems to love those NXGs.)

I prefer devoting the most attention to the LCR.1 (or .2), and adding surrounds as an afterthought. You can probably tell I devote more attention to stereo music than movies though (in stark contrast to fuzz's post). I think my problem is that around here, movie theaters sound terrible. Maybe I don't know what excellent is supposed to sound like? As long as my stereo.1 music sounds great and dialog in movies is clear, I'm pretty easy to please.

Back to subs, do you know whether your receiver will correct dual subs individually? If not, you might be better off considering a big beefy SVS PB13-Ultra. The SVS would give you the added option to choose either sealed or ported, and change it to fit the demands of your room and your listening preferences. If you have 2 subs and they aren't individually corrected, you might be doing more harm than good to your sound.

 

[Rowdy S13]

You sure do like your MB Quart's eh?! I really have no experience with their home stuff, just car audio which I was always happy with. I know what you mean about devoting more attention to the LCR, if you look at my current equipment list you can see I have done pretty much exactly that. I also still subscribe to that theory, but I love my movies so I want very good surround performance as well.

I still have some time to change my mind about 10,000 more times, but I think if I was buying right now today I would go with the 7 Ascend speakers. I am slowly working on the wife to just give me free reign of the room though, and if that happens I may go a bit crazy I still wouldnt blow the budget out of the water, but I would probably change to the EMPTek towers, larger center, and dipole/bipole sides, bookshelf surrounds, with two PB-2000's.

I am pretty set now on at least one PB-2000, but more than likely two. As much as I try to fight it I need ported subs. I like bass too much and the louder and lower, the better. Plus I need to be able to one up my friends of course! One has a PB12-NSD in a similar sized (but open) room, and another has a PB13-Ultra in a mansion where he needs at LEAST two. Even though he needs two or more, that Ultra is still unreal! I think two PB-2000's in my much smaller, much more closed off room would be able to take out the Ultra though

Speaking of subs, I know I can assign each output to be either the same, left and right, or front and rear. I am not positive how much more control over each I have, but since it is a .2 receiver, and they are assignable, I would assume I can do at least some.


Sean

 

[rojo]

I love the German-made Quarts! I haven't heard the Alexxa towers, but if they're anything like my Vera bookshelfs they'll be so revealing and clear you won't be able to find anything else like them within your price range. It's a shame Fosgate left them for bankruptcy and Maxxsonics didn't continue the German production. But it's good for people looking to get high end stuff at a deep discount. Unfortunately, they've sold out of all their matching centers. If you were to get the Alexxa towers and you wanted your center channel to have the same finish, you'd have to get something like this SVS center, this NHT Classic, or this Ascend Sierra-1. I'm not sure how well either would timbre match the Quart towers, but the SVS and Ascend have pretty impressive specs at least.

In any case, your current inclination to get all Ascends is probably a good one.

Re: dual subs, you might ought to Google "YPAO dual subs" to see what other Yamaha owners say. From what little I've seen, those receivers will allow setting distances so the sound from both subs hit your ears at the same time. But they probably won't individually flatten the response of each sub. It could be that your front sub ostensibly encounters a room mode at 60Hz where your rear sub does not, resulting in a boomy sound at this range; whereas a single sub could be more easily flattened and tamed by YPAO. Admittedly, this could all be fear, uncertainty and doubt on my part, but Yamaha doesn't appear to offer any literature that I've seen directly addressing the issues that can arise with implementing multiple subwoofers in a room. My point is that an investment in a second sub should be made with more certainty of the results than an assumption.

If you do get a second sub, then consider budgeting for a miniDSP and mic combo to perform the corrections yourself, or a DSPeaker Anti-Mode or similar. It could be that you get two subs in your room and they sound great, and no additional correction is needed. But then again, it might be otherwise.

I hope someone more knowledgeable or experienced responds and corrects me.

 

[Rowdy S13]

I think its safe to say that only us two reply to this thread rojo The good news is that both channels can be controlled independently of one another, and also have the same range of adjustment. The bad news is that it may not have quite the range I need to flatten the entire response. I have never graphed out response in my life though, just level match and move on. I am going to go with two subs regardless, and if I need to add something to reign them in then so be it.

Sean

 

[fuzz092888]

IIRC YPAO corrects both subs as one and creates its filter based on that. This is what makes subEQ from Audyssey so appealing to many. A miniDSP will allow you to individually correct each sub, but you should still let YPAO set the distance.

 

[Rowdy S13]

fuzz, I believe you are correct on YAPO, BUT I think I can manually adjust each channel. Any recommendations on a MiniDSP? I know nothing about them at all, so any help would be great. I remember SVS a while back had something to better EQ subs. I think Velodyne did as well, but I don't think either do anymore.

Also, while we are on the subject of recommending things for me to spend money on. What do I need to get to actually measure the room response? All I have now is the digital Radio Shack SPL meter, and a few different calibration disc's.


Sean

 

[fuzz092888]

What kind if advice? I use them, I like them, and they work pretty darn well. I would say I love them, but their CS can be a little sketchy from time to time. I've had both great and not so great experiences with them. However, their products are excellent for the most part and offer something that isn't available for less money and in a complete package compared to other offerings. If you have any specific questions you can PM me or post here.

 

[Rowdy S13]

What kind if advice? I use them, I like them, and they work pretty darn well. I would say I love them, but their CS can be a little sketchy from time to time. I've had both great and not so great experiences with them. However, their products are excellent for the most part and offer something that isn't available for less money and in a complete package compared to other offerings. If you have any specific questions you can PM me or post here.

AHHHHH I thought MiniDSP was a type of product like an amp, or a receiver. Google is my friend, and I now see whats up! I will do some research and report back any questions I come up with.


Thanks,
Sean

 

[fuzz092888]

Also, while we are on the subject of recommending things for me to spend money on. What do I need to get to actually measure the room response? All I have now is the digital Radio Shack SPL meter, and a few different calibration disc's.

You need either a measurement mic, an external soundcard, and REW or you need to buy something like Omnimic or the XTZ measurement system. The measurement mic and soundcard or USB mic route is cheaper, but the learning curve is a bit steeper. However, there are plenty of support places for REW and the USB mics.