A silly quote

[Irvrobinson]

We know that ported loudspeakers have become fashionable. We don’t do fashion. Ported speakers create the illusion of bass extension by emphasizing certain frequencies (hence the name tuned port). This often results in non-linear bass response sometimes described as “one note bass”.


I'm ashamed to say that I own a product made by the company that has that line on their web site, in my primary system no less. The system with ported speakers, that don't have one note bass. Bizarre.

It's Benchmark Media. I think they've unfashionably lost their minds.

Benchmark Media Systems, Inc. - New! Benchmark SMS1 Loudspeaker (pair) - Shipping Soon

 

[PENG]

Silly or not, I do miss AR and wish they are still in business making acoustic suspension speakers. I would take those any time over ported designs since power is affordable nowadays.

 

[zieglj01]

Interesting - however, I will pass on the speaker

Website also seems to be lacking

 

[Irvrobinson]

Silly or not, I do miss AR and wish they are still in business making acoustic suspension speakers. I would take those any time over ported designs since power is affordable nowadays.

Why? Are you convinced group delay is really important? Some other factor?

 

[PENG]

Why? Are you convinced group delay is really important? Some other factor?

I thought the bass of acoustic speakers do sound tighter and deeper relatively speaking. As you know they typically have lower sensitivities and that maybe one reason why they don't seem to get too popular to too long.

 

[shadyJ]

I heard those speakers at Axpona. They sounded nice. That line is just marketing hyperbole, and almost everyone does it. I wouldn't read too much into that, and remember there is far worse and misleading marketing hype from many other audio companies.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I thought the bass of acoustic speakers do sound tighter and deeper relatively speaking. As you know they typically have lower sensitivities and that maybe one reason why they don't seem to get too popular to too long.

I've restored and modified several AR speakers, including two A3a's. Although the classic AR speakers were less sensitive than some of the competition in the day, they would actually rank in the middle of the pack today, perhaps a little higher. I was shocked at how much more sensitive the stock AR3a was compared with my own designs, which are mostly 4 ohms, just like the AR. Part of that is because AR didn't use much baffle step compensation (nor did anyone else back then) but even my modded version was more sensitive than my Philharmonic speakers. So why did the acoustic suspension woofer really fall out of favor? First, advances in the science of bass reflex optimization have reversed the comparative advantage hat the AC woofer once had. It's now possible to get deeper bass out of a bass reflex cabinet that is smaller than what would be required in a true acoustic suspension design. Second, the very high compliance required for an AC woofer introduces production quality control problems. Although I did think that the midbass on the old AR's was a little more natural than on some ported designs, the ultimate bass extension was not all that impressive, even on the AR3a. It was certainly much better than you would have realized with its competition, but it's nothing special by today's standards for a large bookshelf cabinet.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Although I did think that the midbass on the old AR's was a little more natural than on some ported designs, the ultimate bass extension was not all that impressive, even on the AR3a. It was certainly much better than you would have realized with its competition, but it's nothing special by today's standards for a large bookshelf cabinet.

Agreed. My tiny, inexpensive (when you consider they're powered) Audioengines 5+ reproduce a darn clean 40Hz test tone, and they're ported.

I have to admit that I was a fan of sealed speakers for years, owning multiple generations of ADS towers, but after owning ported speakers since 1996 I haven't felt a compelling need to go back. In fact, the most pleasing bass I've heard, but certainly not the most powerful, is still from the Linkwitz Orion. Of course, just to be open-minded, I have a sealed subwoofer.

 

[PENG]

I've restored and modified several AR speakers, including two A3a's. Although the classic AR speakers were less sensitive than some of the competition in the day, they would actually rank in the middle of the pack today, perhaps a little higher. I was shocked at how much more sensitive the stock AR3a was compared with my own designs, which are mostly 4 ohms, just like the AR. Part of that is because AR didn't use much baffle step compensation (nor did anyone else back then) but even my modded version was more sensitive than my Philharmonic speakers. So why did the acoustic suspension woofer really fall out of favor? First, advances in the science of bass reflex optimization have reversed the comparative advantage hat the AC woofer once had. It's now possible to get deeper bass out of a bass reflex cabinet that is smaller than what would be required in a true acoustic suspension design. Second, the very high compliance required for an AC woofer introduces production quality control problems. Although I did think that the midbass on the old AR's was a little more natural than on some ported designs, the ultimate bass extension was not all that impressive, even on the AR3a. It was certainly much better than you would have realized with its competition, but it's nothing special by today's standards for a large bookshelf cabinet.

I know auditory memory is very short so if you tell me the 3a's bass won't be better or in fact not as good as your Phil 2 or 3 then I wouldn't dream about them any more. If you ever mod a pair of the AR7 in good condition please let me know as I think those must be "cheap" to ship to Ontario.

 

[PENG]

Agreed. My tiny, inexpensive (when you consider they're powered) Audioengines 5+ reproduce a darn clean 40Hz test tone, and they're ported.

I have to admit that I was a fan of sealed speakers for years, owning multiple generations of ADS towers, but after owning ported speakers since 1996 I haven't felt a compelling need to go back. In fact, the most pleasing bass I've heard, but certainly not the most powerful, is still from the Linkwitz Orion. Of course, just to be open-minded, I have a sealed subwoofer.

I bought a pair of Braun's years ago, thinking that they (being acoustic suspension) would sound as good as my then ex AR7. They were fine but I thought their bass was taut but weaker than the AR7. Later on I thought I read about Braun was made by ADS but not 100% sure. ADS made speakers larger than even the AR3a right and did you like them?

 

[3db]

I don't buy into the myth about AS designs having more natural, cleaner and tighter bass compared to ported designs. Maybe 20 years ago, AS speakers held advantage but this simply not the case anymore. That quote can now be tossed into the endless pit of snake oil that the audio industry keeps on perpetrating for the sake of profit. I would pit the Energy 22s against the ARs anyday.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I bought a pair of Braun's years ago, thinking that they (being acoustic suspension) would sound as good as my then ex AR7. They were fine but I thought their bass was taut but weaker than the AR7. Later on I thought I read about Braun was made by ADS but not 100% sure. ADS made speakers larger than even the AR3a right and did you like them?

Braun bought ADS sometime in the... 1980s? ADS remained separate, but Braun started making the cabinets for them out of some then-advanced nine-layer plywood, or something like that. I owned the L1530 and later the M15. Both were sealed, both had two 10" woofers per speaker. Both had that classic, Q=0.5 alignment. The L1530 had subdued highs, the M15 had better highs, but it was still no champ in that regard. At least the M15 threw a decent soundstage; the L1530s never disappeared. The original Legacy Focus blew them both away, IMO.

Interestingly, ADS followed the M15 with their last big tower designs, the M20 and the M30, which were so-called bandpass designs. I heard the M30 at an audio show when it came out in the early 90s and it was far better than any ADS speaker I had heard previously. Too expensive for me at $8000/pair in 1991, but I liked them better than any other ADS speaker I'd heard, so sealed alignment didn't win the day.

 

[zieglj01]

There are some good ported designs out there - that are tight, controlled and articulate.

The complete design, is what counts for me.

 

[12AU7]

I participated in the development of the SMS1. We did extensive measurements, and put in long hours of listening to several well known ported monitors before settling on acoustic suspension. Not all small ported boxes had "one note bass"...but many did. In an a sincere effort to avoid hyperbole, we used the word "often" when describing this issue, rather than making a blanket statement.

We felt it important to explain why we went in the direction we did. Please give them a listen, when you get a chance.

DM

 

[Irvrobinson]

I participated in the development of the SMS1. We did extensive measurements, and put in long hours of listening to several well known ported monitors before settling on acoustic suspension. Not all small ported boxes had "one note bass"...but many did. In an a sincere effort to avoid hyperbole, we used the word "often" when describing this issue, rather than making a blanket statement.

We felt it important to explain why we went in the direction we did. Please give them a listen, when you get a chance.

DM

You work for a company that makes state of the art digital electronics and you chose the name of a vacuum tube as a user id. And you want to "go back" to acoustic suspension, as you describe the process. Interesting.

I have two pairs of relatively cheap ported mini-monitors that don't have one-note bass, at least when placed an appropriate distance from room boundaries. Assuming you compared speakers in the $2500/pair and above price class, can you share the name of even one that had one-note bass?

 

[12AU7]

Probably not a good idea to be critiquing specific companies or models. All I can say is we did our homework (I am a consultant, not a Benchmark employee). Sure hope you can give the SMS1 a listen someday.

12AU7 was a tube used in the first gain stage of my first amplifier when I was a young man (oh so long ago). Have used it as a screen name since the 90's.


"Why can't I go first?" - Buzz Aldrin

 

[PENG]

I don't buy into the myth about AS designs having more natural, cleaner and tighter bass compared to ported designs. Maybe 20 years ago, AS speakers held advantage but this simply not the case anymore. That quote can now be tossed into the endless pit of snake oil that the audio industry keeps on perpetrating for the sake of profit. I would pit the Energy 22s against the ARs anyday.

I still have a pair of those ref 22 conn, deep bass indeed for a single 7" driver.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I know auditory memory is very short so if you tell me the 3a's bass won't be better or in fact not as good as your Phil 2 or 3 then I wouldn't dream about them any more. If you ever mod a pair of the AR7 in good condition please let me know as I think those must be "cheap" to ship to Ontario.

Well, there's no question that the Phil 3's go way lower than the AR3a. The 3's are flat to 25 Hz, and are still going at 20.
But they're a whole lot bigger than the 3a's, and they use a folded transmission line loading. As for "quality," I can't say anything definitive. One thing to keep in mind--this thread seems to be using the terms "sealed" and "acoustic suspension" interchangeably. Very few contemporary sealed speakers or sub woofers are acoustic suspension. A true AS woofer, like the old AR's, had an extremely compliant (floppy, even) suspension, and relied on the natural spring action of the sealed air in the box to control cone motion. Most modern woofers with a high QTs suitable for a sealed box still are much less compliant and are controlled primarily by their suspensions. I'm sure that if the AR guys were around today they would say any magic in the quality of their bass was due to the more linear spring provided by the trapped air.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Audio politics and religion.

 

[zieglj01]

I participated in the development of the SMS1. We did extensive measurements, and put in long hours of listening to several well known ported monitors before settling on acoustic suspension. Not all small ported boxes had "one note bass"...but many did. In an a sincere effort to avoid hyperbole, we used the word "often" when describing this issue, rather than making a blanket statement.

Sure hope you can give the SMS1 a listen someday.
DM

It would be interesting to see some measurements on these speakers.