Putting a TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 in my wakeboard boat!

[Brando]

Hi Guys,

I've been reading up on this site for a couple years without becoming a member, but now I have a question.

I have no idea about box building specs... I have been trying to get a hold of someone over at TC Sounds all week, but nobody ever answers, it's always an answering machine when I call. Anyway, I have decided on putting an LMS Ultra 5400 in my open bow wakeboard boat. I am trying to determine the best possible box size for my application. I'd like to build as small a box as possible without sacrificing sound and/or damaging the speaker. I will be running 2600 clean watts to the sub from a couple of Zed Audio Minotaurs as well as a dedicated sub woofer control preamplifier (Zed's RA). I realize this is more of a home audio forum, but you guys are more familiar with the TC Sounds subs than most car audio forums.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

p.s. Side note. I'm looking for some hard hitting 8" woofers for my low mids. Currently I'm looking at the Radian 2208's and Ciare NDC8-3's. Any suggestions would be appreciated as well.


Brando

 

[Brando]

I should also note that I will be using this sub for strictly music, so I'm not worried about the sub sonic areas so much.

Thanks

 

[JohnnieB]

Hi Brando, a friend of mine has JL Audio in his boat. It sounds good over twin 250 hp mercs. That's about all I can tell you.

 

[crossedover]

IMHO you should contract with a professional company that has experience in marine installs. Laying out that kinda of money in that environment as a diy project doesn't seem fruitful. Spend the extra and get some piece of mind behind the install. Remember your in an open air environment so there is no reinforcement of the sound so to speak off.

 

[agarwalro]

I believe that sub is not designed for marine applications.

 

[fuzz092888]

There's not even a remote chance I'd put an LMS Ultra in a boat.

 

[JohnnieB]

JL Audio has marine specific gear. Subs are made to perform in open air environment.

 

[macddmac]

For that $$ I'd go with a JL and amp and call it good.

 

[Bryceo]

My Malibu wakeboarding boat has a JL AUDIO systeam in it


Sent from my iPhone 5
using Tapatalk

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi Guys,

I've been reading up on this site for a couple years without becoming a member, but now I have a question.

I have no idea about box building specs... I have been trying to get a hold of someone over at TC Sounds all week, but nobody ever answers, it's always an answering machine when I call. Anyway, I have decided on putting an LMS Ultra 5400 in my open bow wakeboard boat. I am trying to determine the best possible box size for my application. I'd like to build as small a box as possible without sacrificing sound and/or damaging the speaker. I will be running 2600 clean watts to the sub from a couple of Zed Audio Minotaurs as well as a dedicated sub woofer control preamplifier (Zed's RA). I realize this is more of a home audio forum, but you guys are more familiar with the TC Sounds subs than most car audio forums.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

p.s. Side note. I'm looking for some hard hitting 8" woofers for my low mids. Currently I'm looking at the Radian 2208's and Ciare NDC8-3's. Any suggestions would be appreciated as well.


Brando

What an incredibly anti social endeavor to plan such a system in an open boat. People come to our waters and Lakes to enjoy nature. They do not want to hear your clownish system.

This is what people come to enjoy.

Fortunately we have strict laws against that type of system in Minnesota. Bring that to our lake and we will all be out to you with a warning and then a call to the Hubbard County Sheriff PDQ.

And by the way those new Merc I/0 units exceed MN noise laws, and people who buy them quickly find we turn them in here. I keep my db meter handy for that sort of thing.

So do your self a favor, get a boat with a nice quiet engine and keep the sound system off and enjoy what this wonderful country has to offer. Your sub is not something we want to hear in this neck of the woods, and we would not tolerate it. We want to hear the Loons seen in the picture. They sound a lot better then the system in your boat!

 

[JohnnieB]

As an avid fisherman, I couldn't agree more doc. We only have one lake that's really used by pleasure boaters, and it's split in half. One half is a no wake, and for the most part, we don't fish the other half. I didn't know Minnesota had those laws in place, mainly because my rig only has a 35 horse and no sound system. I guess if the Mercs are that loud, and the JL's still sound good, well there you go. To add to what TLS was saying, please be respectful of other people on the water, keep the volume down when in range of someone who might not want to hear it. Be repectful of nature and the waters she provides for everyone to enjoy.

 

[darien87]

What an incredibly anti social endeavor to plan such a system in an open boat. People come to our waters and Lakes to enjoy nature. They do not want to hear your clownish system.

Fortunately we have strict laws against that type of system in Minnesota. Bring that to our lake and we will all be out to you with a warning and then a call to the Hubbard County Sheriff PDQ.

And by the way those new Merc I/0 units exceed MN noise laws, and people who buy them quickly find we turn them in here. I keep my db meter handy for that sort of thing.

So do your self a favor, get a boat with a nice quiet engine and keep the sound system off and enjoy what this wonderful country has to offer. Your sub is not something we want to hear in this neck of the woods, and we would not tolerate it. We want to hear the Loons seen in the picture. They sound a lot better then the system in your boat!

Geez talk about anti-social. Sorry TLS but that comes across pretty harsh. I don't own a boat nor do I ever really spend any time on lakes but if you're spending all your lake time looking to bust people that annoy you that seems like you're not enjoying the nature that you're there to appreciate. Not everyone goes to a lake to fish and look at loons. Some people want to party and wakeboard. You should be respectful of other people's wishes as well.

 

[TLS Guy]

Geez talk about anti-social. Sorry TLS but that comes across pretty harsh. I don't own a boat nor do I ever really spend any time on lakes but if you're spending all your lake time looking to bust people that annoy you that seems like you're not enjoying the nature that you're there to appreciate. Not everyone goes to a lake to fish and look at loons. Some people want to party and wakeboard. You should be respectful of other people's wishes as well.

Fortunately it happens very seldom. When it does all of us here stamp it out quick. I don't allow any sound reproduction devices to be used in any of our boats, beech or dock. Fortunately Hubbard County patrol the lakes here often. Partying and boats is a bad combination, and we had enough tragedies in Minnesota the last few years to prove the point. One guy is now doing a long sentence for negligent homicide.

We have no problem with people coming to responsibly enjoy the lakes. That means choosing the correct equipment that is quiet and does not make a large wake. Large wakes do a huge amount of damage to the shore line. We had one boat that came up from Iowa two years ago, that did huge damage to the reed beds and shore line here in the space of a week. Choose outboard power over I/0 and slow down close to shore. Keep large wakes well away from shore.

I have had to go to extreme lengths to get loons successfully nesting again.

Power boat wakes regularly flood loon nests. Boaters need to be mindful of issues like this and stay well away from fragile nesting areas in the Spring.

Operating power boats in an inconsiderate moronic fashion causes lots of problems. Fortunately here in Minnesota most boat owners are mindful of the issues and highly considerate. They don't like the rogues any more than the home owners here.

 

[Brando]

Well then........

I've been trying to come up with a positive response to everyone's feedback... Here's a shot at it:

First of all I made this post for constructive criticism and help, if you wanted to say something negative or nonconstructive, I'd just assume you keep your opinions to yourself!...

Having said that, let me reply to everyone
1. I've been running JL's for years and have been reasonably happy with the results. In this case, JL isn't going to do what I want them to. I had 2 12W6's in my last install, and they did the trick for that setup, but again not looking for those results. I had a 13.5W7 powered by a beastly Audison amp, and man was I unimpressed, so it's a no-go on JL whether it be free-air or whatever. They're inefficient medium quality subs, and I'm trying to go with as much of an SQ-type setup as possible while running as efficiently as possible. Obviously a boat and SQ probably shouldn't be used in the same sentence unless it's a yaught or something, and I realize the limitations. However, what is the old saying? "It's all about the install". Most boats on the water right now with systems are loud, and obnoxiously distorted. I'm trying to go a different route.

2. I have 2 semi-local companies working on a prototype box for the LMS Ultra, so don't worry about me screwing it up myself. I wouldn't attempt it by myself.

3. In response to "TLS Guy", You have no idea what my intentions are with this boat. I'm not looking to anchor up next to a Walleye fisherman and play some dubstep with 20,000 watts on 20 tower speakers. This is going to be a show/go boat where the sound will probably be used mostly out of the water. My boat is a brand new model just introduced this year, and I happen to know a lot of the local dealers and businesses around my town. From time to time (after I get my tower speakers designed) I will be playing at their events i.e. BBQ's, promotional events, house-style parties, as well as big "party cove" type hookups. Most of my friends hook up boats (in a party environment a long way away from fisherman, skiers, whatever else), and only turn 1 radio on between 2 to 10 boats. It's usually mine. As for wildlife, we have plenty of it here UN-endangered, and don't have the same issues as you do with the fowl. In some areas we are legally allowed to hunt the ducks, and dove. If you knew me and my family, you'd have probably not even responded in the first place, because you would know how respectful we are to wildlife 1st, and people 2nd. I live on 15 acres in the middle of nowhere and hunt on a 2000 acre management ranch. I'm not sure why I'm explaining myself to a complete stranger, but there you have it.

4. Darien87, THANKS for the back up!


Now... going back to my original post, if anyone can help me out with box airspace and possible experience with an LMS Ultra's frequency responses in extremely small sealed enclosures, I would greatly appreciate the help and advice. I realize putting a $925 sub in a boat of all things is borderline crazy, but as I explained, it's more for show, and regardless of what I want to do with it, I have the money to try it. Plus I got a crazy deal on the sub, so why not?.....

Oh, just for you borderline crazy people out there like myself:
-I'm using 3 pairs of Morel Hybrid Integra 602's for my high's and high mids. I am using a back cover that's air tight and a front cover that has a membrane which is 100% UV and moisture resistant as well as coating the front cones. I'm talking with the head Morel rep in New York about coming up with a marine version of these if I can get mine to function properly as a soft dome tweeter in this kind of environment. I really love the sound from a soft dome tweeter, especially Morel.
-The 8's I'm using are 4-Ciare NDC8-3's for the low mids. I'll post my review on these later since I can't seem to find much on them here in the states.
-As for signal processing, I'm using a Mosconi (Gladen) DSP.
-Amps will all be Zed Audio. 2 Minotaurs on 8's, 2 Minotaurs on 18", and a Leviathan on the Morel's.

I'll try and post some clips of everything when it's all done.

 

[JohnnieB]

My appologies to you Brando, I certainly didn't want to imply that you are irresponsible. No, you didn't have to explain yourself, but i'm glad you did.

Allow me to explain myself. I can't speak for TLS, nor do I need to. I think as someone who spends a lot of time on the water, I see a lot of people who have no regard for anyone else. We call jet skis "lake fleas". We all have to share the waters, regardless of what we choose to do on it. Too often, pleasure boaters are very inconsiderate to not only fisherman but also the environment. People go to the lakes to party, ski, have fun. Nothing wrong with any of that. But too often weekend partiers get too drunk or just don't care if they bother anyone else. Not to say some fisherman are very considerate either. I take a garbage bag with me to the river, and pick up beer cans, worm containers, fishing line and general garbage that fisherman leave behind all the time. I think conservation is something very personal for TLS, as it should be for everyone, thus his response. I agreed with him because he was right. Because you are a stranger, and given the system in which you seem to be building, I simply was asking you to keep others in mind and be respectful. To automatically assume you fit that profile, was not my intention.

I recommended JL because it was what I have heard in marine audio. You're OP did not state that JL had been tried and was not what you were after. I hope this experience has not left you with a disagreable impression of this forum. Good luck to you.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you promise to bring that boat within 1500 miles of Benedict Lake I will help you.

However you won't like what I have to say. That is a big driver. It is low Q and so needs a lot of equalization. Your internal box volume will end up around 6 cu.ft anyway you slice it.

The driver needs a minimal internal air volume of 2.5 cu. ft. In that volume you get a nice Qts of 0.55. Since this is a low Q driver and fairly efficient, you have a high f3 of 47 Hz. So equalization is mandatory. It needs Eq starting at 60 HZ of 12 db per octave. It needs a high pass filter of 12 db per octave at 25 Hz. It needs cutting off there so as not to drive it too close to resonance of 20.5 and limit the power response. Even though that is a big powerful driver, in a small sealed enclosure after Eq sound pressure output is not massive, but high. Although the driver will output 123 db at 60 to 100 Hz, after Eq you will end up with an spl of 105 db at 25 Hz. In a room you would have room gain, but in a boat you won't.

Now the volume of the driver is 0.4 cu.ft and that has to be added to the internal volume, and you will end up with another half cu, ft. or so of bracing. With that much force from the driver extreme bracing is mandatory. So you will end up with a box likely just over 4 cu.ft. I have modeled this driver for people before, and I have checked other sites and their volumes agree with my calculations.

If you try and use a smaller box the Qtc will plummet and it will sound as if it has no bass. Also the air inside will compress and expand too fast, causing wild fluctuation of air temp and rapid changes of air density. You could even produce a sonic boom. I was in conversation with Bob Carver, when he visited me in Grand Forks. This was when he was designing his Sunfire woofer. He told me he had produced and loud sonic boom changing pressure in a small box too rapidly in his lab.

If 4 cu.ft inside, the outside will be larger, is too large for your application, then you need another driver.

 

[Brando]

Thanks for the input.

I have decided to invert the sub so as to get the space I need. 4 cu.ft will be too big of a box for the location it's going in. I don't have exact measurements as the boat is currently at a shop, but what would yall think about possibly going with an Aperiodic membrane? Would that even be possible with an Fs of 20.5Hz? Just a thought...

 

[agarwalro]

how respectful we are to wildlife 1st, and people 2nd.

I thought this was funny. I too feel animals are better than people. Pre divorce, the welcome I got from my 4 dogs was second to none. It was like being mauled by happiness.

 

[herbu]

you would know how respectful we are to wildlife 1st, and people 2nd

It is how it should be. People have to earn respect.

I gotta say this is funny... well, maybe not funny, but entertaining.

I'm with TLS Guy in that I HATE being subjected to "music" or noise from somebody's car, boat, or even house. I have one prejudice... it is discourteousness. One can be courteous regardless of race, religion, station, or any other way people like to group themselves these days. It is not a law, it is not a requirement, it is not a mandate, it is a courtesy.

In a setting like TLS's pictures, I would be incensed by some discourteous boater.

On the other hand, I can see, or try to see, Brando's perspective. If the boat is intended for use only in places where that is the normal, expected and accepted behaviour, I can understanding wanting "the best".

So in spite of the entertainment value, let's assume ne'er the twain shall meet.

 

[lsiberian]

JL Audio makes the best boat speakers I'm aware of.