M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
A 65 yrear-old man, alone in his house and (at least) three young, strong teenagers break in?

...and it's happened several times before?

..and they have already stolen guns from him and could very well have them on them?

Yeah, is sure sounds like fear to me.

but, this borders on a political thread and I don't really expect it to last too long.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Saw a little piece about this on our news. Sounded like the bad guys were first incapacitated, then executed... and therin lies the rub. Wonder if we'll ever hear the facts.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
I think "revenge" is a bit much and would make it seem premediatated and planned. My take would be that, after what I said before, he just "lost it" in the heat of the moment. A crime of passion/rage as it were.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Warlord
I won't address the fact that his initial shots left them incapacitated, but still felt intitled to administer a coup de grace to each of them. That's for the jury to judge. However, his decription of the events doesn't add up for me. After the first person is shot, multiple times, the accomplice decides to follow him downstairs? Is there nothing about the sound of gunshots to dissuade her from such a foolhardy action? And, this doesn't reing true for me:

He shot the next intruder, wearing a black hoodie tightly drawn to her face, in much the same way. She tumbled down the stairs, too.
“My thinking was, I’m not going to ask if there’s a gun,” he said. He pulled the trigger to shoot her again, he said, but when the gun clicked in a misfire, he heard her laugh at him. He pulled out another gun and shot more.
I'm not sure I'd be in a laughing mood if I had just been shot, and the shooter was fixing to shoot me again.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
yes, i'm sure he wanted to kill them.

but this reminds me of the story (true or not i don't know) about a robber slipping in his victim's house and then suing the owners ... and actually winning.

anyway, my opinion is that there should be no "rights" arising out of the commission of a crime, especially in someone's home.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
...but when the gun clicked in a misfire, he heard her laugh at him.
After careful review of the audio/video surveillance, it was discovered that it was actually a man named Slider laughing.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Texas has the Castle Doctrine. It is pretty clear-cut. If someone breaks into your house at night, you absolutely have the right to shoot to kill. I suspect that if this happened in good ole TX, he would have never been charged. And, I absolutely agree with that approach.

A few years ago in TX a guy had his house broken into and someone tried to assault his daughter in her own room. That night, the assailant got scared and ran away. Later in the week, the homeowner heard someone rattling the back doorknob trying to get into the house. The homeowner shot the guy THROUGH THE BACK DOOR and killed him. No charges were filed.

If you try to break into someones home, that's what you deserve.
 
M

Midwesthonky

Audioholic General
I won't address the fact that his initial shots left them incapacitated, but still felt intitled to administer a coup de grace to each of them. That's for the jury to judge. However, his decription of the events doesn't add up for me. After the first person is shot, multiple times, the accomplice decides to follow him downstairs?
A wounded intruder is still a threat. A dead intruder is not a threat. With at least two intruders in the home, he did exactly what he should do...eliminate the first threat so he can focus on the second threat.

I agree that it doesn't add up that the first accomplice would also go down the stairs. But then again, repeatedly breaking into someones home isn't the best indicator of intelligence.

If I was on the jury, I would vote to acquit. Regardless if he waited for them. They still broke into his home, a criminal act, and he defended himself. There was more than one intruder and he had no way of knowing if they were armed or not. He did what was necessary to eliminate the first threat not knowing if the second individual was a threat or not. Failing to eliminate the first threat leaves you open to getting killed while your attention is on the second threat. You do not know if either one of them has a pocket gun or not.

I realize the parents are upset. But they do need to understand their children, whether unarmed or not, broke into a house that was not theirs. They were in the act of committing a crime. The home owner has no way to know if they were armed or not. Their children were doing something incredibly stupid and wrong, and paid the ultimate price for it.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Warlord
A wounded intruder is still a threat. A dead intruder is not a threat. With at least two intruders in the home, he did exactly what he should do...eliminate the first threat so he can focus on the second threat.
No argument that a wounded person can still be a threat, but the level of threat is probably a key issue for the jury to deliberate.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
No argument that a wounded person can still be a threat, but the level of threat is probably a key issue for the jury to deliberate.
No it isn't. "Level" of threat is no longer an issue when someone enters your home (castle doctrine or not) - that automatically establishes intent, meaning you can pretty much be sure if someone made it to your house and entered it while it was closed, you can take that as a threat. A RETREATING intruder is no longer CURRENTLY a threat (meaning they could come back). You have the duty to completely incapacitate an intruder as your life may very well depend on it; but that does not grant the right to murder. If you are justified to shoot, you are justified to kill to protect yourself. Walking over and shooting them while they are down or "mercy" killing is an ENTIRELY different story, and in this case it is NOT justified in both cases.

When he says he had time to put one body on a tarp and drag it downstairs, that says to me we have a serious issue here. The FIRST thing he should have done after shooting the guy was exit the building to a safe location and call the police. It should not have gone further than that. It is true he did not know if there were others or if they were armed, but what he did displays excessive force to me as opposed to simply fear.

This was one of the things in my CCW class that surprised me and I had not actually considered, and I thank my instructor for it emphatically. That class changed my opinions about some things such as cases like this. Unless you are an officer, you are NOT the police and it is NOT your job to do something about intruders. Protecting yourself is one thing, but intentionally killing intruders, while probably a good thing, isn't the RIGHT thing. Your responsibility is to attempt to get everyone safe FIRST (get a firearm, then get the family), so you know where everyone is so you don't accidentally harm your own family. Second is to prepare for the worst; aka get ready for battle and call the police.

Though I am a bit conflicted over it, in this case, I'd have to vote to convict.
 
Last edited:
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Warlord
Noit isn't. "Level" of threat is no longer an issue when someone enters your home (castle doctrine or not) - that automatically establishes intent, meaning you can pretty much be sure if someone made it to your house and entered it while it was closed, you can take that as a threat. A RETREATING intruder is no longer CURRENTLY a threat (meaning they could come back). You have the duty to completely incapacitate an intruder as your life may very well depend on it; but that does not grant the right to murder. If you are justified to shoot, you are justified to kill to protect yourself. Walking over and shooting them while they are down or "mercy" killing is an ENTIRELY different story, and in this case it is NOT justified in both cases.

When he says he had time to put one body on a tarp and drag it downstairs, that says to me we have a serious issue here. The FIRST thing he should have done after shooting the guy was exit the building to a safe location and call the police. It should not have gone further than that. It is true he did not know if there were others or if they were armed, but what he did displays excessive force to me as opposed to simply fear.

This was one of the things in my CCW class that surprised me and I had not actually considered, and I thank my instructor for it emphatically. That class changed my opinions about some things such as cases like this. Unless you are an officer, you are NOT the police and it is NOT your job to do something about intruders. Protecting yourself is one thing, but intentionally killing intruders, while probably a good thing, isn't the RIGHT thing. Your responsibility is to attempt to get everyone safe FIRST (get a firearm, then get the family), so you know where everyone is so you don't accidentally harm your own family. Second is to prepare for the worst; aka get ready for battle and call the police.

Though I am a bit conflicted over it, in this case, I'd have to vote to convict.
I'm confused. You start by saying the level of threat is irrelevant, but then say that shooting them while they are down isn't justified. Am I missing something? I'm not trying to be argumentative - I'm just not clear on what you are saying.

I'm pretty sure the prosecutor will have more information to work with than what's indicated in the article. So when I read: "Prosecutors say he crossed the legal line into murder when he continued to shoot after each unarmed intruder was wounded and no longer posed a threat.", I have to assume they have some evidence to support their case. That is what I meant when I said it's for the jury to decide.

Opinions will vary on whether his actions are justified. The shooting of the first person can be debated, and if that's where the story ended, he could conceivably get off, depending on how he explains it to the jury. But, with the second one - and based on his own statements - I think we are in agreement, he had no right to shoot her, execution style.

Up here, you are allowed to use use lethal force to protect yourself, or somone else. But, not to protect property. In other words, if somebody breaks into your house and you have an escape route, I think you would have difficulty convincing a crown prosecutor that you were justified in killing an intruder.

I understand the frustration and anger that can be aroused when someone violates the boundaries of one's home. I would do whatever is necessary to protect my family, but I would rather avoid killing someone to do that. But, there are people out there who seem a little too eager to play judge, jury and executioner. Every situation is different and has to be judged on its own merits.
 
M

Midwesthonky

Audioholic General
This is a tough case and not so easy. I've read more about the testimony and I'm a bit torn. I admit I can change my opinion. I do not think Premeditated Murder is applicable. So what if he laid in wait? He was in his home, they illegally entered his home.

My biggest hangup and where I think he should face charges is (according to the article I read) he waited until the next day to contact his neighbor who contacted police. He also moved the bodies. If he had just shot them and called the police himself right away, I don't think he would be in trouble. The fact that he waited and deliberately moved the bodies is serious trouble. He did go above and beyond basic self-defense. What the crime should be... I don't have an opinion at this time. But he did act wrong in those regards.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I'm confused. You start by saying the level of threat is irrelevant, but then say that shooting them while they are down isn't justified. Am I missing something? I'm not trying to be argumentative - I'm just not clear on what you are saying.

I'm pretty sure the prosecutor will have more information to work with than what's indicated in the article. So when I read: "Prosecutors say he crossed the legal line into murder when he continued to shoot after each unarmed intruder was wounded and no longer posed a threat.", I have to assume they have some evidence to support their case. That is what I meant when I said it's for the jury to decide.

Opinions will vary on whether his actions are justified. The shooting of the first person can be debated, and if that's where the story ended, he could conceivably get off, depending on how he explains it to the jury. But, with the second one - and based on his own statements - I think we are in agreement, he had no right to shoot her, execution style.

Up here, you are allowed to use use lethal force to protect yourself, or somone else. But, not to protect property. In other words, if somebody breaks into your house and you have an escape route, I think you would have difficulty convincing a crown prosecutor that you were justified in killing an intruder.

I understand the frustration and anger that can be aroused when someone violates the boundaries of one's home. I would do whatever is necessary to protect my family, but I would rather avoid killing someone to do that. But, there are people out there who seem a little too eager to play judge, jury and executioner. Every situation is different and has to be judged on its own merits.
What I am saying is: it is difficult, if not impossible, for a jury to determine someone's mental state at the moment of the shootings. Everyone's level of "threat" is different, and I can't decide what a 65yr old man feels is imminent danger. If he says he felt his life was in danger, how can anyone say he didn't? Unfortunately, it isn't clear cut in this case. Not unlike the Zimmerman/Treyvon case, since he is the only one left standing, the true events will be hard to determine.

This is a tough case and not so easy. I've read more about the testimony and I'm a bit torn. I admit I can change my opinion. I do not think Premeditated Murder is applicable. So what if he laid in wait? He was in his home, they illegally entered his home.

My biggest hangup and where I think he should face charges is (according to the article I read) he waited until the next day to contact his neighbor who contacted police. He also moved the bodies. If he had just shot them and called the police himself right away, I don't think he would be in trouble. The fact that he waited and deliberately moved the bodies is serious trouble. He did go above and beyond basic self-defense. What the crime should be... I don't have an opinion at this time. But he did act wrong in those regards.
The new information we found over the weekend was that he intentionally parked his car away from the home and made it look like nobody was home. Then he setup in the basement armed, ammo, water and power bars. We also found that the male of the two was already determined to have been the one who previously broke into this home because police found the old man's stolen possessions in the kid's home. This means the old man KNEW it was them and expected they might try again and also created the conditions in which they might try it. This is where the "revenge" portion appears to come into question.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Warlord
What I am saying is: it is difficult, if not impossible, for a jury to determine someone's mental state at the moment of the shootings. Everyone's level of "threat" is different, and I can't decide what a 65yr old man feels is imminent danger. If he says he felt his life was in danger, how can anyone say he didn't? Unfortunately, it isn't clear cut in this case. Not unlike the Zimmerman/Treyvon case, since he is the only one left standing, the true events will be hard to determine.



The new information we found over the weekend was that he intentionally parked his car away from the home and made it look like nobody was home. Then he setup in the basement armed, ammo, water and power bars. We also found that the male of the two was already determined to have been the one who previously broke into this home because police found the old man's stolen possessions in the kid's home. This means the old man KNEW it was them and expected they might try again and also created the conditions in which they might try it. This is where the "revenge" portion appears to come into question.
OK, thanks. I understand what you meant now. Speaking of his mental state, several actions on his part don't seem reasonable to me - as you describe, he seemed to be laying in wait for them which make his intentions seem at least suspicious. After dragging one body to the garage, he goes back to lay in wait because he's afraid of a possible accomplice which doesn't add up. The process of dragging the body out left him quite vulnerable to an accomplice, so he seems to be contradicting himself. The execution-style coup de grace - twice - is a bit eyebrow raising. And, a normal person would call the police right away. He waits until the following day to tell his neighbour!? Regardless of his right to bear arms, this guy is not a responsible firearms owner. My take - given the information I see - is that he stepped waaaay over the line on this one.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I can sort of understand killing the male. Even though he was down - the proximity, the fact that he was right there, that's ALMOST reasonable. The girl though, absolutely not. He made sure nobody else could tell their story. What's wrong with these kids too though? Tox screen on them? The guy was already busted for breaking into this guy's house and he's dumb enough to do it again?

Also, he's thinking about his carpet after shooting someone? That's not a fearful state of mind.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top