When to Add External Amplification to an A/V Receiver

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, one thing is for sure. No amp or speaker is going to improve the movie or music content. Crappy movies and music will still be crappy. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Your assessment makes a lot of sense. I probably could have been a bit more tactful in my responses but the whole DBT/Blind argument is often a point of contention for me. I see that term being abused or manipulated too often by manufacturers or consumers alike to make too many sweeping generalizations. I hate seeing the whole audiophile experience being dumbed down or over analyzed as it often is. I think there should be a healthy balance of science and personal experience to formulate a more balanced perspective.

I do hope Goliath comes back in a good mood as I don't hold grudges and look forward to his contributions.

Off to shoot some videos about amplifiers with Hugo. This discussion sparked some ideas in me which is always a good thing.
We know, and thanks again.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I've never had a problem believing that well-designed and constructed cables were audibly neutral, but for some reason over a period of decades I've never been able to shake the feeling that I have legitimate preferences in electronics. I don't want to, but I do. I feel like an atheist who doesn't quite believe that the universe could have sprung into existence from nothingness. :)

The tests for audibility must be flawed. :)
Funny I felt almost the same way, and I really wish people could come up with a better audibility test that is less flawed.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Can I agree more than 100% with you on this?
We're audiophiles. We can go up to 200%. :D

My speakers and amps have disappeared, and I am utterly submersed into the movies and music. ;)
 
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T

twochordcool

Junior Audioholic
No, your speakers are not properly "large." They have a -3dB point of only 52 Hz. You should set them to "small" and select an 80 Hz crossover point. With them "large," you are effectively filtering out the really deep bass for all of the main channels, and increasing distortion for all of them as your bookshelf speakers are trying to reproduce deep bass that they cannot adequately reproduce. If you redirect the deep bass to your subwoofer, you will be able to get bass down to its limits for all channels, instead of the limits of your bookshelf speakers.

You should turn up the volume on the Rotel (if you are going to use it at all, which you need not) and rerun YPAO. Basically, most power amps without volume controls are very much like an integrated amplifier with the volume turned way up.

There are limits to how much the Yamaha can adjust each channel, and it seems that you are trying to exceed what it can do with its adjustments. So turn up the volume control on the Rotel, and immediately rerun YPAO. Or just take the Rotel out of the system entirely.
I doubled the volume of my integrated amplifier, from the 9:00 position to the 12:00 position, reran YPAO and got the W3 error code to go away, AND I noticed while going through the results that it brought my left and right speaker volumes within range, closer to 1.0 db, instead of maxed out at 10.0 db. ADDITIONALLY I have more equal sound coming out of the front 3 speakers now - I think raising the volume of the integrated amp fixed that problem.

Last concern:

The results on YPAO seem very good - it was pretty accurate with all the speaker distances, labeled all speakers as normal and large, and seem to set the subwoofer crossover at 40 Hz...

But I am confused about a few things. In my Yamaha RX-A1020 owners manual it seemed to me as though there would be NO signal whatsoever going to the subwoofer if my speakers were set to large...

Can that be right?

I understand that less would be going to the subwoofer if the speakers were set to large and the crossover set to 40 Hz, but NOTHING? Doesn't seem right.

2) YPAO set these speakers to large itself, and set the crossover, as though it felt the speakers were handling the frequencies it was demanding from it...Why should I override it if the YPAO feature did it's test and found the speakers to be worthy of the large setting?

I also don't really want to tinker with it after YPAO does it's thing...I could be wrong but after it does it's thing the system is "calibrated" so why should I possibly do something to throw off it's calibration?

Finally, I believe the bottom end of the frequency range of my DM 602 S3 speakers is 40 Hz, and that just so happens to be where the Yamaha set the crossover...is that merely a coincidence, or does the AV receiver think that my speakers can handle down to 40 Hz, and then my subwoofer take over below that?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Quantum Mechanics still baffles me to this day despite my studies of it in college and now through the great educational experiences of the Wormhole show hosted by Morgan Freeman. A Universe from nothingness while certainly seemingly plausible is still so mysterious. What should we define as nothingness? Perhaps that too needs to be looked into further?
Do you read Scientific American? Highly recommended in any event, but this month's issue is entitled "A Crisis in Physics?", and doubly recommended. Supersymmetry is in trouble. Of course, my favorite phenomenon, entanglement, has been proven experimentally to exist. The notion that a subatomic particle can have some sort of communication with a corresponding entangled particle, and not affect the quadrillions of other seemingly identical particles, some arbitrary distance away, is mind-blowing to me. The more I think about it, the more I think it can't possibly be true, but it seems to be...
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Do you read Scientific American? Highly recommended in any event, but this month's issue is entitled "A Crisis in Physics?", and doubly recommended. Supersymmetry is in trouble. Of course, my favorite phenomenon, entanglement, has been proven experimentally to exist. The notion that a subatomic particle can have some sort of communication with a corresponding entangled particle, and not affect the quadrillions of other seemingly identical particles, some arbitrary distance away, is mind-blowing to me. The more I think about it, the more I think it can't possibly be true, but it seems to be...
No unfortunately my pleasure reading is very limited these days. I am a bit removed from Astrophysics but I need to take more interest since my youngest daughter is expressing an interest in it. I try to keep up with the latest Cosmos and Wormhole shows on Discovery :) I really feel like we are about to make a huge discovery in the next decade that will answer many key questions about gravity, and dark matter and possibly another Higgs Boson.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Do you read Scientific American? Highly recommended in any event, but this month's issue is entitled "A Crisis in Physics?", and doubly recommended. Supersymmetry is in trouble. Of course, my favorite phenomenon, entanglement, has been proven experimentally to exist. The notion that a subatomic particle can have some sort of communication with a corresponding entangled particle, and not affect the quadrillions of other seemingly identical particles, some arbitrary distance away, is mind-blowing to me. The more I think about it, the more I think it can't possibly be true, but it seems to be...
I have not read that one for a long time, excuse is, no time yet. Talking about physics, anyone who has a degree in science or engineering would likely have touched on enough of atomic physics, quantum physics, electrical and magnetic field theory as well as many of the mathematical transforms such as Fourier, Z, Laplace etc., that are necessary to have a chance of understanding the audio stuff often get discussed around here. Science is the main reason people manage to explore the universe to places far from earth without getting lost, think about the required accuracy for that to happen.

So again, it puzzles me how and why people still talk about silly simple engineered products like SS amps/preamps that somehow have to synergize with speakers, that are just another simple enough engineered product. I can understand difference between HTIAB amp and a XPA-2, but people are talking (as though it is matter of fact) something like, if you want your speaker X to sound good to your ears, you have to pair it with Pass Labs or Classe etc.. Often mentioned is that numbers and measurements does not tell the story. I agree, more numbers, measurements, and measuring standards are needed but if we are comparing amps at the higher end level, they typically do provide a fair bit of measurable figures. So if that school of thoughts are well founded, then what are we missing, are there scientic papers by credible sources such as CIT, MIT, Stanford U professors or just some PhD thesis? I Googled hard and did not find much. Perhaps the theories behind audio amps are not considered at the education level higher than a Bachelor or Master degree.

For color and interior design at least there are competent designer who can come up with many combinations that work, but to buy an amp we have to try and find one combination that works well with our speakers and go by our ears? That seems incredible to me, though I understand those who believe in that have good reasons that I just don't know, could not understand, or accept (potentially). I certainly don't have the patience and time to try different combinations in my home. There is also no point debating because one can't prove it one way or another, not on forums anyway, so I am just venting while trying not to derail anything....:D

I would think that people such as Gene who have experience in designing amps, such as Gene, should be able to design an affordable amp that could sound neutral with most speakers that forum members own, with few exceptions such as TLS's speakers and some relatively difficult ones such as ADTG's 802 diamond (he calls it D2) and Gene's speakers, forgot its name but they looked gigantic. I do plan on DIY'ing at least one SS and a tube myself and will do enough A/B to satisfy myself if they will be audibly different. It won't be for music enjoyment. It could be one of my retirement science project though.:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I guess theoretically the 802D2 should be difficult to drive with minimum impedance of 3.68 ohms @ 98Hz and phase angle of -54 degrees @ 49Hz.

But they don't seem "difficult" to drive to me when I hooked them to the Denon 3312 AVR in 2.0 pure direct.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I guess theoretically the 802D2 should be difficult to drive with minimum impedance of 3.68 ohms @ 98Hz and phase angle of -54 degrees @ 49Hz.

But they don't seem "difficult" to drive to me when I hooked them to the Denon 3312 AVR in 2.0 pure direct.
Frankly, in the context of amplifiers like the ATIs, the better Parasounds, Quads like TLSGuy has, or other robustly-designed class A or AB amps, I don't think the 802Ds (or the Salon2s) qualify as "difficult to drive". No, they're not like simple resistors, but IMO they're not challenging loads. I think this "challenging load" stuff comes from John Atkinson's comments in his test reports, and I think he's aiming his caution at people with tube amps, single-ended designs, or those low-power single-ended tube designs (the worst of both worlds) that fascinate some audiophiles.

In my experience I have only run into one really difficult load, my pair of original Legacy Audio Focus. That design has seven drivers, including three 12" woofers that appeared to be wired in simple parallel, because a friend of mine measured an impedance dip on my right speaker to just below 2 ohms in the 40-45Hz range, if memory serves. But the Legacys are not only an unusual case, IMO they are an inexcusably bad case, and who knows what the back EMF was from those three woofers to boot. They're the only speaker I've ever come across that seemed to audibly benefit from passive vertical bi-amping. Duddleston seems to have become more conservative in his old age, and modern versions of Legacy speakers don't measure poorly like that in test reports.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Frankly, in the context of amplifiers like the ATIs, the better Parasounds, Quads like TLSGuy has, or other robustly-designed class A or AB amps, I don't think the 802Ds (or the Salon2s) qualify as "difficult to drive". No, they're not like simple resistors, but IMO they're not challenging loads. I think this "challenging load" stuff comes from John Atkinson's comments in his test reports, and I think he's aiming his caution at people with tube amps, single-ended designs, or those low-power single-ended tube designs (the worst of both worlds) that fascinate some audiophiles.

In my experience I have only run into one really difficult load, my pair of original Legacy Audio Focus. That design has seven drivers, including three 12" woofers that appeared to be wired in simple parallel, because a friend of mine measured an impedance dip on my right speaker to just below 2 ohms in the 40-45Hz range, if memory serves. But the Legacys are not only an unusual case, IMO they are an inexcusably bad case, and who knows what the back EMF was from those three woofers to boot. They're the only speaker I've ever come across that seemed to audibly benefit from passive vertical bi-amping. Duddleston seems to have become more conservative in his old age, and modern versions of Legacy speakers don't measure poorly like that in test reports.
I agree. I consider "difficult to drive" as having 1-2 ohms impedance, not around 4 ohms, and sensitivity below 84dB/w/m.

The Phil3 are like 4 ohms/ 85dB/w/m, and they don't seem difficult to drive in 2.0 pure direct by just the Denon 3312.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
No unfortunately my pleasure reading is very limited these days. I am a bit removed from Astrophysics but I need to take more interest since my youngest daughter is expressing an interest in it. I try to keep up with the latest Cosmos and Wormhole shows on Discovery :) I really feel like we are about to make a huge discovery in the next decade that will answer many key questions about gravity, and dark matter and possibly another Higgs Boson.
I'd like to treat you to a not-so-little, undiscovered gem of physics from my physician. His effort stands also as a study of the politics of science.

This man is a rather genius individual who is (East) Indian and therefore had a serious mathematical and science educational experience...as well as his medical training. He moved to the U.S. to complete his residency and has practiced here for many years, now. Thus, professionally, he is an internist and has no 'standing' in the physical science community. However, since childhood he has been speculating on cosmological issues and has recently decided to publish his thoughts and findings. His principle propositions AND mathematical proofs are numbered in the dozens in his copyrighted document, Propositions from the displacement of space by matter and the equivalence of Spacetime, General Field and Dark Energy.

Now it has been exactly 50 years since I was a physics student at Cal Berkeley...so my level of understanding is sharply diminished. But what he has written certainly passes my eyeball test and modest ability to evaluate the material. But guess what. He has submitted his paper(s) to many appropriate publications. And like an academic leper, he gets no looks from the physics publication community of editors. The document(s), because he isn't a name in the field, nor has the usual academic degrees, is sent back unread. (Nevertheless, I predict that sometime in the next decade you will be reading about a new view of gravity, not as one of the a primal force of the universe, but as a derivative and reactive activity of displaced space!)

It's a bit complex, but here is basically how he describes his proposals. "These propositions not only satisfy the empirical data such as Galileo’s principle, Newton’s Laws of motion, Einstein’s equivalence, the central tenets of Special and General Relativity, Uncertainty Principle, Entropic Principle and the Holographic Principle etc, they also give us valuable clues regarding the possibility of the Dark Energy as the underlying priori for the Universal constants, principles and Laws of Nature! Included in these propositions is a proposition regarding the limitation to the Maximum Density of matter and the Law of equilibrium of Density, displacement of space and Gravity, which play further role in the Black Hole dynamics and the fate of the Universe." His mathematical proofs are too complex to discuss here.

So here we are, with so very much happening in the world of science, and even with the stated goals of understanding the universe, physicists are seemingly just like some of the folks in the world of audio and most every other endeavor. They're involved in bias, politics, and closed mindedness to a generous degree.

Just imagine a post office employee trying to get published the General Theory of Relativity today. (Although, I guess not much has changed, since Einstein was ridiculed for that hypothesis for many years before it became a standard of physics.)

Sorry for extending the off-topic stuff. :( Now back to your regularly scheduled debate. :)
 
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gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
The document(s), because he isn't a name in the field, nor has the usual academic degrees, is sent back unread. (Nevertheless, I predict that sometime in the next decade you will be reading about a new view of gravity, not as one of the a primal force of the universe, but as a derivative and reactive activity of displaced space!)
I don't think this is a new idea. I believe many scientists believe the reason why Gravity is such a weak force is because it's stronger in other dimensions that we can't perceive which can also lead to the possiblity of a multi-verse. I think reality is stranger than fiction and once we unlock the secret of gravity we can be masters of our Universe.
 
JohnnieB

JohnnieB

Senior Audioholic
That's true. Dream house and dream car take precedence over HT needs right now. Can't even squeeze a dime for HT. Definitely no more ATI amps until those wishes are fulfilled.
I could take those Revels off your hands if you need some extra scratch. :D
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
I don't think this is a new idea. I believe many scientists believe the reason why Gravity is such a weak force is because it's stronger in other dimensions that we can't perceive which can also lead to the possiblity of a multi-verse. I think reality is stranger than fiction and once we unlock the secret of gravity we can be masters of our Universe.
Perhaps I didn't explain my friend's concepts very well. As far as I know, he has proposed something never before considered in cosmology/astrophysics. Think of it this way...the current physics approach to gravity is much like them looking at all the different critters in the sea but completely ignoring the water itself as a fundamental force for the critters activities. Distant starlight will bend around points of gravity, such as the sun or moon or other planet. Why, according to Einstein? Because of the mass of the astral body the light is bending around. (And Einstein was never able to incorporate his version of gravity into a Grand Unification Theory, btw.) My friend's POV is that it's not the mass of the object...IT IS THE SPACE DISPLACED BY THE BODY that causes the light to bend.

Something for you to consider...where does SPACE go when you place an object somewhere?

The multiverse discussion is based upon discussions other than what I've mentioned. While it is a concept that has many supporters AND detractors, the variety of quantum mechanical approaches to it are primarily follow-ons to Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle.

Quantum Mechanics and String Theory are so cool...and so mind bending!
 

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