Need subwoofer advice for new home theater build

[Steve81]

Looking at JMan's review of the RythmikE15vs SVS SB13 Ultra, I can't see having seperate amps on a passive sub offers more flexability than the plate amps offered on the Rythmik E15S

There's another thing to mention as well: Klipsch's outboard amp is specifically made to be used with the KW120 as opposed to the Dayton amp. You might say a little FR smoothing doesn't matter, but there's also the question of things like built in limiters to protect the sub.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There's another thing to mention as well: Klipsch's outboard amp is specifically made to be used with the KW120 as opposed to the Dayton amp. You might say a little FR smoothing doesn't matter, but there's also the question of things like built in limiters to protect the sub.

Maybe they should put plate amps inside towers like RBH T-30, Revel Salon2, KEF Blade, B&W 800D2, etc., so they can use built-in limiters to protect the woofers.

BTW, the RBH 1010 subs are the bottom portion of the T-30 towers.

 

[Bear123]

So the sub with the best output numbers will just unequivocally integrate the best and sound the best in every single room, huh?

Okay, agree to disagree.

You are the only one that mentioned the best output numbers. I said best performance, which takes many parameters into account, including output. Having said that, output should be one of the primary considerations when comparing two subs, as producing the proper amount of clean bass at low frequencies is the most difficult and important task of a subwoofer. Kind of like saying a sports car should not be judged on its acceleration and handling in objective, apples to apples testing.

 

[crossedover]

Maybe they should put plate amps inside towers like RBH T-30, Revel Salon2, KEF Blade, B&W 800D2, etc., so they can use built-in limiters to protect the woofers.

BTW, the RBH 1010 subs are the bottom portion of the T-30 towers.

Just a note PMC and many other companies ie Seaton use plate amps in their speakers. And PMC makes some of the finest speakers in the world. Look up RBH powered speakers, just because more are sold passive dosent mean it's the best way.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Kids, don't fight!
OP still hasn't replied about size of his room.
And do keep in mind - budget for sub/subs is only $1000

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Kids, don't fight!

No, we're just debating.

Makes the WORK day go by really fast.

My, my, only another 1hr or so to go?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just a note PMC and many other companies ie Seaton use plate amps in their speakers. And PMC makes some of the finest speakers in the world. Look up RBH powered speakers, just because more are sold passive dosent mean it's the best way.

It's not about being "best", which is 100% equivocal.

It's about getting what you want and the sound you want.

So many black-and-white statements like "ID speakers and subs are best bang for the buck", etc.

But if you have B&M speakers and subs that have what you want, the sound you want and the price you want, it's okay too.

2 sides to every story.

 

[Steve81]

Maybe they should put plate amps inside towers like RBH T-30, Revel Salon2, KEF Blade, B&W 800D2, etc., so they can use built-in limiters to protect the woofers.

BTW, the RBH 1010 subs are the bottom portion of the T-30 towers.

Ultimately, towers have a different job to perform than a subwoofer.

In most setups, subwoofers have to deal with the LFE channel plus five channels of redirected bass; at reference level, a subwoofer could theoretically have to deliver up to 123dB of output (115dB + 5 channels of redirected bass). Most people just aren't torturing their towers in that manner. Then there's the matter of extension. Most music isn't doing much below 20Hz; conversely, there are more than a few movies these days with scenes featuring significant content down below that mark. For a vented subwoofer, that combination of ultra-low frequencies and high output can be dangerous without built in protection.

Edit: Figured this might help get the message across

 

[crossedover]

It's not about being "best", which is 100% equivocal.

It's about getting what you want and the sound you want.

So many black-and-white statements like "ID speakers and subs are best bang for the buck", etc.

But if you have B&M speakers and subs that have what you want, the sound you want and the price you want, it's okay too.

2 sides to every story.

Don't disagree, just playing the other side. PMC makes some of the nicest TL speakers I've heard and with active amplification. I've heard some of the best passive TL speakers also. Presenting both sides is just the debate. I'd rather have Paul K design a TL cabinet and Dennis M the crossovers than S.Linkwitz fully active, but that's just my requirements. Not to say ones better. Plate amps that are designed correctly are no different the separates.

 

[shadyJ]

There isn't going to be any difference in performance going from a plate amp to a outboard amp, the only difference is which is more convenient for the user. As for the Klipsch subs, their own output ratings for the subs are so garbled that they are useless, I wouldn't even try to compare those measurements to anything done by any third party. My guess is they aren't bad subs, but likely a bit pricey for the performance at MSRP. I'll take the Hsu, thank you very much. I have always been curious abut the KW's performance though, that is one beefy looking 12":

A 15 lbs magnet!

 

[Bear123]

It's not about being "best", which is 100% equivocal.

It's about getting what you want and the sound you want.

So many black-and-white statements like "ID speakers and subs are best bang for the buck", etc.

But if you have B&M speakers and subs that have what you want, the sound you want and the price you want, it's okay too.

2 sides to every story.

You have Funk subwoofers. You are not allowed to suggest retail subs anymore.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You have Funk subwoofers. You are not allowed to suggest retail subs anymore.

That was yesterday.

Today it's all Funk.

Don't have?

Get some.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't disagree, just playing the other side. PMC makes some of the nicest TL speakers I've heard and with active amplification. I've heard some of the best passive TL speakers also. Presenting both sides is just the debate. I'd rather have Paul K design a TL cabinet and Dennis M the crossovers than S.Linkwitz fully active, but that's just my requirements. Not to say ones better. Plate amps that are designed correctly are no different the separates.

Yes. Of course, defending my side is a lot more difficult since most subs have internal amplification.

Actually my debate wasn't passive vs. active. My Linkwitz Orion are 100% active. But the XO and Amps are external. The Linkwitz Thor subs also have external amplification.

If I wanted the ultimate sub, I would get the Funk flagship sub which has external DSP/EQ/Amp.

Technically, all subs are "active". Some have internal amps and some have external amps.

So my debate was about external vs. internal amp placement.

Internal amp = more heat build up, more vibration inside subs, less flexible amp usage/availability especially if you can't find the plate amps that fit inside your gear secondary to production issues, heavier cabinet/less portability.

External amp = potentially more expensive, but what's a few $$ compared to the speakers and amps everyone owns?

My side: I think it's hypocritical of the audiophile "community" to endorse "separates" (amps, preamps, pre-pros, DAC, etc.) and then turn around and put amps inside all the subs.

 

[Bear123]

My side: I think it's hypocritical of the audiophile "community" to endorse "separates" (amps, preamps, pre-pros, DAC, etc.) and then turn around and put amps inside all the subs.

I think improvements in technology have made separates not so much of an upgrade any more but rather just a choice, and possibly without meaningful improvements in quality.

 

[3db]

I think improvements in technology have made separates not so much of an upgrade any more but rather just a choice, and possibly without meaningful improvements in quality.

I agree especially with some of the plate amps being used in the high end Rythmik subs which are as configurable as any seperate you care to throw at it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think improvements in technology have made separates not so much of an upgrade any more but rather just a choice, and possibly without meaningful improvements in quality.

That may be true. If I were not defending my case, I may agree.

But to defend my case, choice is very important. Choice is our way of life.

And I'm glad that companies like Linkwitz, Funk and RBH offer me that choice when most companies do not.

 

[ReUpRo]

OP, for something different from the conventional box sub, look at the SV Sound cylinder subs. If you don't mind the vertical design and austere looks, their performance is on par with the ported box subs, while being a tad cheaper.

 

[kini]

Everyone feels differently.

I would steer clear of all powered subs and stick to only passive subs + external EQ/DSP/amp. But that's just me.

The only 2 ID brands I can think of that offer passive subs include Funk and JTR.

Also keep in mind that outdoor measured output is one thing (just like speaker measurements). How the subs and speakers actually sound to you in your room in terms of both Quality and Quantity is another thing.

Chase, now Chane has passive subs. A pair of 18" sealed with amp is $1500.

 

[3db]

Chase, now Chane has passive subs. A pair of 18" sealed with amp is $1500.

With today's technology, I really don't see an advantage going passive. I understand the wanting of choice but I don't see any advantages.

 

[shadyJ]

There is no reason not to go passive if you can accommodate the space on your equipment rack. You can get as much amplification as you want. You can get amps that have all kind of nifty features like the iNuke DSPs. If the amp ever went bad, replacing it is not as much of a hassle, especially if the plate size is different for a plate amp that is no longer being made. Its easier to cool and ventilate a rack amp to insure a longer life. It can lessen the weight of the subwoofer. Passive allows for so much more flexibility.