New Room is Driving Me Crazy!

[Paul Rahn]

Was fortunate enough to move into a new (to me) home recently which has a great living room with all the space I need for audio components, furniture and a fireplace. Soon after moving in I upgraded my front speakers with an old set of Dahlquist DQ20i s but they didn't sound so great. 2 channel stereo (with sub active) just sounded hollow. So I bought a separate amp (thinking the receiver wasn't gutsy enough) but this didn't make any noticeable improvement so I purchased a decent subwoofer to replace my old one but that didn't make too much difference either. Next I re-ran the auto calibration on the receiver (which told me everything except sub was reverse phased even though all wiring was correct). Eventually I swapped out the receiver, brought in my old speakers and even demoed another set of new ones. Nothing really sounded very good until I put the system in 5 channel stereo and suddenly things improved dramatically. In fact the Surround Left and Right speakers sound even better than the fronts (which they shouldn't, given they are bookshelf, though decent ones). I suspect that it is the room which I will describe as best I can:

Room Length is approximately 30'
Width is approximately 17.5'
Height is approximately 10'

The rear of the room has a sliding glass door to the outside (double pane glass) with thermal curtain in front of it. The right side of the room has a large hearth/fireplace. The left side of the room has two entrances which are approximately 8 or 9 feet wide each (no doors).

My equipment is as follows:

Receiver: Outlaw Audio 1070 (just replaced Yamaha RX-v2500)
Amplifier: Carver TFM 25 (225w per channel)
Sources: Apple TV, Tivo, HTPC running JRiver all connected via Digital Optical Cable (music ripped in lossless format).
Speakers: Front Dahlquist DQ20i (alternates are Paradigm Monitor 7s and Magnepan MMGs)
Surround Paradigm Mini Monitors on stands.
Sub: SVS PC12-NSD (Crossover set on receiver to 60Hz)

I took the Maggies to a smaller room in the house and set them up with the Yamaha (no sub) and they immediately sounded better. I have them on demo and am about to bring them back but I am definitely chasing my tail as to why the system sounds so poor in the living room. Tonight I plan to run an experiment by placing the front speakers in the rear of the room and seeing how they sound on 2 channel stereo facing the opposite way. Given how the Mini Monitors sound now I suspect things will sound better.

Any advice on how to improve this situation is appreciated. I am running out of patience (my wife already has) and money so thanks in advance.

Paul

 

[rojo]

Any chance you could post a pic or two? Have you experimented with moving the mains outward and toeing them in? Would flipping your room orientation 90° be an option? Could you try covering the fireplace with something, and maybe consider getting a glass front for it if the covering made a worthwhile improvement?

Have you heard of the subwoofer crawl? Well, first, you probably ought to perform the crawl with your subwoofer. Then after your subwoofer is in the best spot, try the same thing with your Paradigms (but maybe use a chair instead of continuing to crawl on the floor). I don't know whether that'll work or not, but it's worth a shot I guess.

 

[lallygagging]

Here's an approach to setting up a system. It is somewhat unconventional, but in your case, since you are having so much trouble, you just might want to give it a try. If you do, I would very much like to know what the results were.

DECWARE - Article about Setting up a Listening Room without Treatments

If doing the above set up is not possible, then another approach might be to go to using a MacMini with PureMusic as server. Then you can get FabFilter ProQ plug-in an you can configure you own digital room correction.
If you don't have any way of doing the measurements or you don't feel comfortable doing it on your own you can get it done for you by Clayton Shaw of Spatial Computer. For under a $1000 you will get the FabFilter ProQ software, a mic and an mic preamp and Team Viewer. You set the mic in the optimal listening position and Clayton takes control of your system using Team Viewer and he will measure your speakers response in your listening room and do a configuration for you.
The Spatial Computer comes room correction comes with a 30 day trial period. If it doesn't work to your liking you get reimbursed.

 

[Paul Rahn]

Any chance you could post a pic or two? Have you experimented with moving the mains outward and toeing them in? Would flipping your room orientation 90° be an option? Could you try covering the fireplace with something, and maybe consider getting a glass front for it if the covering made a worthwhile improvement?

Have you heard of the subwoofer crawl? Well, first, you probably ought to perform the crawl with your subwoofer. Then after your subwoofer is in the best spot, try the same thing with your Paradigms (but maybe use a chair instead of continuing to crawl on the floor). I don't know whether that'll work or not, but it's worth a shot I guess.

Thanks for your response. I will attempt to post some pictures when I get home. My wife would love to flip 90 degrees but then the main speakers would be at least 12 feet apart (due to hearth). The fireplace has a screen but I think trying a cover is not a bad idea. My wife also suggested a heavy insulated curtain for the large entrances. I have heard of subwoofer crawl and have experimented with placement some. The thing that is baffling is the improvement when 5.1 speakers are playing. Bass is tighter, each speakers sound better.

 

[Paul Rahn]

Thanks. I think there may be a way to set up on the diagonal as the article suggests. I will try that and let you know how it compares to reversing the room 180 degrees. Of course that solution and the Spatial Computer solution don't take into account the: 1) Wife's aesthetic sensibilities and 2) the budget. In any case I am sure she will let me try the diagonal setup. If it sounds great maybe I can convince her.

Thanks again.

 

[TLS Guy]

Your room should have good acoustics by dimension, but that is not always everything. The room is far too big for your Magnepans. As I have explained before those Dahlquist speakers are a mess. I'm familiar with them, as I had colleagues buy them to their regret. Those speakers are terminally flawed and muddled. They are on my 10 worst speakers I have ever heard list. The Paradigms are also likely a problem in that room. I find the bass on the larger Paradigms strong but poorly controlled. They are definitely a high Q speaker, and from third part measurements of their speakers, it is clear they go for extended bass alignments, which I consider never a good thing. So this will also cause a lack of detail. From the dimensions you have given, I suspect that there are speakers that would excel in that space. I would look for speakers with a well controlled tight bass and particularly look at Salk, Dynaudio and PMC, not necessarily in that order.

I'm convinced you have a speaker problem much more than you have a room problem.

 

[Paul Rahn]

So last night I placed the Magnepans at the back of the room (on either side of the sliding glass door) and then wired them to the Front Left and Right Channels (disconnecting everything else but the subwoofer). The difference was night and day. The sound was crisp, clear and the bass was tight. So it is the room. Wife is fine with putting these speakers in back of the room (given our furniture setup it is more like the right side of the room). So I will put the surround speakers where the mains were and for TV watching (just news and limited sports in this room, home theater room or bedroom for movies). Slightly unconventional but an amazing transformation.

One correction to my first post. The openings to the room are no equal in size with the one on the front left being 8 ft and the front rear being 12 ft. I suspect a lot of the soundwaves were bouncing out the large opening at the rear until we reversed things.

 

[Paul Rahn]

Your room should have good acoustics by dimension, but that is not always everything. The room is far too big for your Magnepans. As I have explained before those Dahlquist speakers are a mess. I'm familiar with them, as I had colleagues buy them to their regret. Those speakers are terminally flawed and muddled. They are on my 10 worst speakers I have ever heard list. The Paradigms are also likely a problem in that room. I find the bass on the larger Paradigms strong but poorly controlled. They are definitely a high Q speaker, and from third part measurements of their speakers, it is clear they go for extended bass alignments, which I consider never a good thing. So this will also cause a lack of detail. From the dimensions you have given, I suspect that there are speakers that would excel in that space. I would look for speakers with a well controlled tight bass and particularly look at Salk, Dynaudio and PMC, not necessarily in that order.

I'm convinced you have a speaker problem much more than you have a room problem.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. As set forth above, it really is the room! The Maggies sound wonderful now that they are in the right place. As for the Dahlquists, the jury is still out on them. A friend in graduate school had a pair (this was 20 years ago) with the same amp I have now and they sounded fantastic in a relatively small living room with a cathedral ceiling. When I saw these for sale locally at a fairly reasonable price, I couldn't resist. They were one owner and had been treated well. In any case, they, like all the other speakers I tried in that configuration in my new living room, sounded terrible. I will probably be putting them in the sitting area in our master bedroom for late night listening and will report back. I agree that these speakers (now middle aged, like me) are very hit or miss.

As for the Paradigm Monitor 7s, many years ago I purchased them as an upgrade to the Mini Monitors, they never impressed me in the same way the Minis do. I think you are spot on about the bass being poorly controlled. It was listening to the Minis in 5 channel stereo mode that initially led me to try reversing the room. How could the smallest speakers receiving the least power over the longest wiring sound significantly clearer and with tighter bass? It was a real head scratcher. In any case, I will of course check out your speaker suggestions as we all know this is a disease that can never be cured.