Parasound & ATI amps

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So would I, then I would sell the Mark Levinson on eBay, buy a Halo and pocket the extra money.

- Rich

Golly gee, good thinking, Sherlock.

I would take Mark Levinson, sell it, pocket the money, use it towards my Lexus LX that has a Mark Levinson sound system.

 

[slipperybidness]

I understand that a fully balance design can provide better performance but it is the implementation.
Here are two amps measured at HomeTheaterHifi

The Mark Levinson No.5233H (Since the ML is manufactured by ATI, the assumption is a fully balanced design):

Mark Levinson No533H Three Channel Power Amplifier - Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

The Parasound A31:

Parasound Halo A 31 Three-Channel Power Amplifier - Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

I am not saying the one sounds better, you can read the reviewers commentary.
There is no question which one measures better and it is not the ML. Not at 2V and not at 5V and these are low levels.
The ML has considerably more ringing.
Personally, I wonder if an rings more with two tones, wouldn't it be more so with a complex signal?


- Rich

Here is my opinion on the subject.....

A fully balanced design (ie input to output) is absolutely the superior design from a technical standpoint. That isn't open for debate. It is, however, more expensive because it just about doubles the parts count.

Now, for just about all consumer applications, it really isn't going to matter at all. Single ended is perfectly acceptable in most all consumer applications. So a balanced input may be a step up from single ended and a step down from fully balanced, but the end results are gonna sound the same (in general).

The problem for me is that slapping an XLR connection on an amp and not building a fully balanced amp circuit is kind of misleading. To me, it seems like they are trying to pull one over on the customer that doesn't know better and doesn't understand that an XLR connection alone does not make the amp fully balanced.

For the record, I am absolutely a fan of Parasound! I own a 1206 that has been flawless performance, with no music playing, I can crank my USP-1 to full-volume, put my ear right on the tweeter, and hear absolutely 0 hiss or hum! I think their price/performance is dang tough to beat, and there is plenty of used Parasound on the market that makes them hard to pass up.

However, I am more of a fan of their new classic (or truly classic) line than the Halo line. Sure, the Halo line is a step up and looks very good. But it's that dang XLR input without the fully balanced circuitry that kills me on those. IMO, if you're gonna put XLR on there, then make it fully balanced! Don't try to fool me with it. I'm not just bashing Parasound here, I believe Marantz (and I'm sure many others) does the same thing. And, like I said previously, as long as you understand what you are getting for your $ then go for it!

As far as ATI, after I saw some pics under the hood and the build quality, I am absolutely sold!

 

[RichB]

Here is my opinion on the subject.....

A fully balanced design (ie input to output) is absolutely the superior design from a technical standpoint. That isn't open for debate. It is, however, more expensive because it just about doubles the parts count.

Now, for just about all consumer applications, it really isn't going to matter at all. Single ended is perfectly acceptable in most all consumer applications. So a balanced input may be a step up from single ended and a step down from fully balanced, but the end results are gonna sound the same (in general).

The problem for me is that slapping an XLR connection on an amp and not building a fully balanced amp circuit is kind of misleading. To me, it seems like they are trying to pull one over on the customer that doesn't know better and doesn't understand that an XLR connection alone does not make the amp fully balanced.

For the record, I am absolutely a fan of Parasound! I own a 1206 that has been flawless performance, with no music playing, I can crank my USP-1 to full-volume, put my ear right on the tweeter, and hear absolutely 0 hiss or hum! I think their price/performance is dang tough to beat, and there is plenty of used Parasound on the market that makes them hard to pass up.

However, I am more of a fan of their new classic (or truly classic) line than the Halo line. Sure, the Halo line is a step up and looks very good. But it's that dang XLR input without the fully balanced circuitry that kills me on those. IMO, if you're gonna put XLR on there, then make it fully balanced! Don't try to fool me with it. I'm not just bashing Parasound here, I believe Marantz (and I'm sure many others) does the same thing. And, like I said previously, as long as you understand what you are getting for your $ then go for it!

As far as ATI, after I saw some pics under the hood and the build quality, I am absolutely sold!

I get that XLR are a better design. I also read that they reduce even order harmonics but leave odd order in place.
Is that correct?

Even if an Amp is not fully balanced but balanced on the input, if the receiving circuitry is using the balanced signal to cancel the noise, doesn't that server the purpose of reducing transmission noise? Obviously, grounding one leg means it is useless.

Also referring to CPP's post:

1. As in Kessler’s previous top-of-the-line designs, these amplifiers are fully balanced, differential amps, but unlike his earlier balanced designs which were essentially balanced bridged amplifiers, the 6000 series uses only a single input stage with dual-differential output stages. The reason: the advantages of balanced designs are retained and noise is reduced by 50%.

I am not a EE, but it looks like the opposite of the Halo, where there is balanced input and single stage output.


- Rich

 

[RichB]

Golly gee, good thinking, Sherlock.

I would take Mark Levinson, sell it, pocket the money, use it towards my Lexus LX that has a Mark Levinson sound system.

Clearly, I need another cup of coffee.

Oh dear, class-a bias and large SUV's, I weep for the planet (as I freeze my but off).

- Rich

 

[TheHills44060]

Also, the A21/A51 in stealth black is so damn sleek. I just wish it didn't have that "THX certified" logo on the front, kind of cheapens the look imo.

Agreed the A21/51 are nice looking...I use to have a Rotel 991 which had the same THX logo and it bothered me so damn much, funny you mention that.

 

[MosesMalone]

Yeah the Halo in silver is classic and looks really nice as well. Tough decision but if I had to choose, it would be black to match the other gear!

I'm glad they give us the option

 

[JonnyFive23517]

Gain Setting

I've got a black Halo A21 ordered and on the way. The adjustable gain setting on the back is a bit confusing to me...is it a range of 29-32 dB gain structure or something?

I see their recommended setting is to turn it all the way up to THX reference, so I guess that's what I'll do. Is there any reason to turn it down?

-Jon

 

[slipperybidness]

I've got a black Halo A21 ordered and on the way. The adjustable gain setting on the back is a bit confusing to me...is it a range of 29-32 dB gain structure or something?

I see their recommended setting is to turn it all the way up to THX reference, so I guess that's what I'll do. Is there any reason to turn it down?

-Jon

The amp will have a fixed gain structure (guessing something like 29db Av). The knob on the back will allow you to attenuate the incoming signal.

In general, leave the gain knob turned to max. This effectively takes it out of the signal path.

Adjustable gain is a luxury, most consumers won't need it. The only time you might use it is if you have a buzz or hum from too much gain amplifying the noise until it is audible. Typically, this would be from a poor preamp design or extremely high efficiency speakers.

Leave the gain maxed out unless you have a problem like hum or buzz. If you have that problem, then turn the gain on the amp down until it is gone. You would want to turn the preamp volume up to the highest expected listening level, then remove the buzz with the gain knob on the amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've got a black Halo A21 ordered and on the way. The adjustable gain setting on the back is a bit confusing to me...is it a range of 29-32 dB gain structure or something?

I see their recommended setting is to turn it all the way up to THX reference, so I guess that's what I'll do. Is there any reason to turn it down?

-Jon

I can't think of any good reason to turn it down.

I would turn it to 100% also.

 

[JonnyFive23517]

I now understand it, thanks for the help!

 

[RichB]

It has come to my attention that HomeTheaterHifi measurements of the Mark Levinson No533H may be flawed.

These measurements of the Mark Levinson no532H at StereoPhile are correct:

Mark Levinson No.532H power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

- Rich

 

[ReUpRo]

Re: Parasound & ATI amps

With one person on either side, lift the back feet onto the towel

Do tell how Adam will get Niki to help on this? Insert 'forever alone' meme.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The problem for me is that slapping an XLR connection on an amp and not building a fully balanced amp circuit is kind of misleading. To me, it seems like they are trying to pull one over on the customer that doesn't know better and doesn't understand that an XLR connection alone does not make the amp fully balanced.

XLR connections have benefits beyond fully balanced circuits. For long runs, balanced cables with unbalanced electronics will benefit from common-mode rejection on the wires. Providing XLR connectors on unbalanced electronics gives you the connection option for XLRs without adapters. Also, some of us just like the positive locking and mechanical security of XLR connectors, even if we don't really need the balanced construction. So I think it's a bit unfair to accuse sellers of unbalanced electronics of trying to fool people. I use the XLR outputs on my preamp-DAC, and it isn't fully balanced; I just like XLRs more than RCAs, and I won't buy electronics without XLR connections.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It has come to my attention that HomeTheaterHifi measurements of the Mark Levinson No533H may be flawed.

These measurements of the Mark Levinson no532H at StereoPhile are correct:

Mark Levinson No.532H power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

- Rich

What is your deduction, Sir Rich?

Which amp measures better? ML/ATI or Parasound?

 

[RichB]

What is your deduction, Sir Rich?

Which amp measures better? ML/ATI or Parasound?

Apparently, it depends on the measurer.

I just laid it all out there, I re-post, you decide

Additional harmonics occur on some amps when with multi-tone measurements.
According to HTHFI THD+N includes +/-250Hz so harmonics produced outside that range are not included as distortion metric.
The question that remains if the harmonics are significantly greater with music and if so, will they be included by your ears.

Concerning THD+N, IMO:
Bad THD+N numbers are bad.
Good THD+N numbers might be good.

I would like to see THD+N should also be measured low power as well since many of us cruise in the 1 watt range and full frequency plots like those on HTHFI show the harmonics produced outside the THD+N window.

- Rich

 

[slipperybidness]

XLR connections have benefits beyond fully balanced circuits. For long runs, balanced cables with unbalanced electronics will benefit from common-mode rejection on the wires. Providing XLR connectors on unbalanced electronics gives you the connection option for XLRs without adapters. Also, some of us just like the positive locking and mechanical security of XLR connectors, even if we don't really need the balanced construction. So I think it's a bit unfair to accuse seller of unbalanced electronics of trying to fool people. I use the XLR outputs on my preamp-DAC, and it isn't fully balanced; I just like XLRs more than RCAs, and I won't buy electronics without XLR connections.

You do make a very valid point with solid (usually clicks) connection with the XLR connections. For some of us, that is worth the price right there!

My argument is that slapping XLR connections on there just seems a little misleading to me. As I said in a previous post on this thread, as long as you UNDERSTAND the difference and are OK with spending the $, then I won't argue against it. If you DON'T understand the difference, then save the money and go single ended.

 

[jinjuku]

You do make a very valid point with solid (usually clicks) connection with the XLR connections. For some of us, that is worth the price right there!

My argument is that slapping XLR connections on there just seems a little misleading to me. As I said in a previous post on this thread, as long as you UNDERSTAND the difference and are OK with spending the $, then I won't argue against it. If you DON'T understand the difference, then save the money and go single ended.

If the literature doesn't specifically state the Amp is a fully differential design then it is safe to say the amp isn't fully balanced. Just my understanding of what manufactures are allowed to say / not say.

 

[PENG]

The Halo line is not a balanced design from input to output. I have seen it at a credible source before, maybe I'll try to find it again when I can.

I also thought I read something like that before but could not find it any more. The fact that they only mention the input stage in the owner's manual would indicated that there is little chance it is a fully differential end to end design. I did assume it was not, and stated so on this forum in some other threads on this forum, but now that I own one I thought I should not say things that are based on reasonable assumptions.

I really don't need and won't use the XLR connectors as my interconnects are so short but I do like to have the option to do so. As to sound quality, I am absolutely certain I would not hear any difference regardless of fully balanced, semi balanced or unbalanced but that's just me.

 

[PENG]

You do make a very valid point with solid (usually clicks) connection with the XLR connections. For some of us, that is worth the price right there!

My argument is that slapping XLR connections on there just seems a little misleading to me. As I said in a previous post on this thread, as long as you UNDERSTAND the difference and are OK with spending the $, then I won't argue against it. If you DON'T understand the difference, then save the money and go single ended.

He made two important points not just one. The other one being the CMRR that balanced lines do offer, whether the amp is differential from end to end or not. Of course if the cable run is short, like a few feet to 10 feet, then CMRR or not is not really a concern for most people.

 

[PENG]

It has come to my attention that HomeTheaterHifi measurements of the Mark Levinson No533H may be flawed.

These measurements of the Mark Levinson no532H at StereoPhile are correct:

Mark Levinson No.532H power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

- Rich

Thanks for re-posting.