Looking for advice before purchase RSW-15

[TekkSki]

I am a first time poster but a long time lurker. I believe that I may have my mind mostly made up but thought it would be fun to see what you think. I am looking to purchase a sub and have lined up a meeting with someone selling a Klipsch RSW-15 for roughly ~650. My room size is ~40x20 and I realize that I need a lot of sub but don't have the budget to cover it. The rest of my system, for now, mainly consists of Klipsch RF3 towers and and a Onkyo-SR806 receiver. I am happy with the towers. I love bass, and as I only have towers the HT end would be taking a bit of a back seat here for a while to music. The $650 is really my top budget number and was hoping that I am not missing anything else out there that would be a better bang for the buck. Should I be worried about buying a 10+ year old sub? My RF3s are from the same era and they are holding up amazing. I do not baby them, at all. Thanks in advance for any considerations.

*edit: I may be able to coax the wife for an extra $100 but with my room size would something like the below make sense? It would give me the ability to buy another in the future for more bass and be new but I'm not sure that I would be able to afford it. Also this one is 400w RMS and the RSW is 650. Again.. room size.
Amazon.com : SVS PC12 NSD 12-inch 400 Watt Powered Cylinder Subwoofer : Svs Subs : Electronics

 

[j_garcia]

$650 would get you an Outlaw Audio LFM-1EX which is large room certified by AH. Seems pretty high for that sub IMO, when you could get the newer SW115 that got a pretty solid review here at AH for about $100 more (and probably the same or less on sale). You SHOULD be worried about buying a 10yr old sub for almost full price IMO, and yes, older subs are FAR more likely to have sub amp issues with no recourse because they are so old you won't be able to get replacement parts.

Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX Powered Subwoofer

 

[Steve81]

Should I be worried about buying a 10+ year old sub?

The RSW15 was a great subwoofer back in its day, but IMO, 10 years is a bit long in the tooth, especially given the asking price. I'd second the suggestion of the Outlaw LFM-1EX, with an eye towards a second down the road.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

yes, LFM-1EX or VTF-3 MK4 Subwoofer
or if you don't mind a bit of kit assembly :
a) Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm | 295-469
b) Knock-Down MDF 3.0 ft³ Subwoofer Cabinet for Dayton Audio 15 | 300-7078
c) Amazon.com : Crown NXLS1500-0-US Power Amplifier : Musical Instruments

 

[TekkSki]

I was under the impression that they were much more expensive than 650 when they first came out. One place I found listed them at: " Klipsch RSW-15
List price (MSRP): $1,800.00 (each)" : Klipsch RSW-15 - Dream Home Cinema Not sure if this changes anything. As I mentioned before I really do like loud bass and worry that 400w RMS won't cut it in a 1000sq/ft room. Is that website wrong on the MSRP as well? Starting to second guess here :\

*Maybe you guys were thinking of the Ksw vs the Rsw? Looks like the Ksw was about ~750. I'm looking at the RSW-15 that puts out 650w RMS. http://www.klipsch.com/rsw-15-subwoofer/details#specs - just a thought, I don't mean to offend this is a lot of money for me.

 

[j_garcia]

MSRP is never a good judge of audio products from big name manufacturers, so don't use that as a basis. Street price is always lower than the MFG MSRP price. Regardless of that, the age alone counts this one out in my book.

 

[TekkSki]

MSRP is never a good judge of audio products from big name manufacturers, so don't use that as a basis. Street price is always lower than the MFG MSRP price. Regardless of that, the age alone counts this one out in my book.

I could not agree more with that statement in regard to MSRP. I am afraid of the age but have had luck with my towers of the same age. I have full confidence they will last many more years. It seems that every review I read of the RSW-15 is someone raving about it. This concerns me more than MSRP. With my room size and budget can I do much better? What would fill 1000sq/ft with roughly the same RMS on my budget? Again, apologize if I am creating confusion.

I do appreciate your input on the age alone disqualifying the sub. This is something I'm struggling a bit with as well. But does that mean don't buy ANY 10 year old subwoofer? Any expensive one? Or just not Klipsch?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I could not agree more with that statement in regard to MSRP. I am afraid of the age but have had luck with my towers of the same age. I have full confidence they will last many more years. It seems that every review I read of the RSW-15 is someone raving about it. This concerns me more than MSRP. With my room size and budget can I do much better? What would fill 1000sq/ft with roughly the same RMS on my budget? Again, apologize if I am creating confusion.

I do appreciate your input on the age alone disqualifying the sub. This is something I'm struggling a bit with as well. But does that mean don't buy ANY 10 year old subwoofer? Any expensive one? Or just not Klipsch?

Speakers don't have electronics - subs do. simple as that. Sub's amplifier has to work very hard to power VERY in-efficient subwoofer driver... 10 years for most consumer electronic is a very long period of time.

 

[Steve81]

As I mentioned before I really do like loud bass and worry that 400w RMS won't cut it in a 1000sq/ft room.

Suffice it to say: watts don't really mean a lot when discussing subwoofers. It largely comes down to dB and Hz, and in that respect, the Outlaw can deliver quite a lot for the asking price; from 40Hz on up, it can deliver better than 110dB, and down at 20Hz, it's still able to deliver better than 100dB, all of this outdoors, at 2 meters distance. While I wouldn't go so far as to say a single Outlaw (or SVS) subwoofer in your space is likely to satisfy you if you're a bass fiend, it won't embarrass itself either.

But does that mean don't buy ANY 10 year old subwoofer?

Pretty much...

 

[shadyJ]

$650 would get you an Outlaw Audio LFM-1EX which is large room certified by AH. Seems pretty high for that sub IMO, when you could get the newer SW115 that got a pretty solid review here at AH for about $100 more (and probably the same or less on sale). You SHOULD be worried about buying a 10yr old sub for almost full price IMO, and yes, older subs are FAR more likely to have sub amp issues with no recourse because they are so old you won't be able to get replacement parts.

Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX Powered Subwoofer

Shipping is close to $100 on the Outlaw, so it's well over $650. With the VTF3 being so close in price against an Outlaw LFM-1 EX, get a VTF3, its really just an improved version of the Outlaw. Also, the SW-115 was never reviewed by Audioholics, as far as I know. To the OP, the best subs under $650 shipped are the Hsu VTF2 and the Rythmik LV12r. There is a SVS PB12 NSD on B-stock for $550 which is a hell of a deal, that won't last long though. The Reaction BPS 212 could be a dark horse in this range as well.

 

[TekkSki]

Hell you guys have given me a lot to think of. I guess I have to break the bad habit of mainly looking for the RMS numbers and would really hate to lose $650 on what now seems like an impulse buy. I will still go to check it out most likely but not sure on whether to buy.

While I have your attention:
This item is no longer available. - $549 - free shipping ( Ohh hell looks like it is gone now!! )
or
Amazon.com : SVS PC12 NSD 12-inch 400 Watt Powered Cylinder Subwoofer : Svs Subs : Electronics $749 - Free shipping
or
Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX Powered Subwoofer - 649 - 100? shipping

I think I'm most curious as to how the two SVS subs would compare as I'm not seeing much difference between them rather than form? Looks like the PB does a little better below 20Hz? For that price it seems enticing. (and new) Sorry noob question most likely I know.


On a different note, I am very handy and the below plays to RMS side bias -

a) Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm | 295-469
b) Knock-Down MDF 3.0 ft³ Subwoofer Cabinet for Dayton Audio 15 | 300-7078
c) Amazon.com : Crown NXLS1500-0-US Power Amplifier : Musical Instruments

Thanks again for taking the time to respond, this has really been and continues to be a huge help.

 

[Steve81]

I think I'm most curious as to how the two SVS subs would compare as I'm not seeing much difference between them rather than form? Looks like the PB does a little better below 20Hz? For that price it seems enticing. (and new) Sorry noob question most likely I know.

For all intents and purposes, the PC and PB12-NSD will be identical in terms of performance.

On a different note, I am very handy and the below plays to RMS side bias -

a) Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm | 295-469
b) Knock-Down MDF 3.0 ft³ Subwoofer Cabinet for Dayton Audio 15 | 300-7078
c) Amazon.com : Crown NXLS1500-0-US Power Amplifier : Musical Instruments

My only concern with this recommendation is that your room isn't exactly a good fit for a sealed sub. Generally speaking a sealed sub will typically roll off much earlier than a ported sub, but it does so gradually. In a smaller room, this can be a big benefit, as you naturally see a low end boost in such spaces that could lead to a flat response down to 20Hz, whereas a ported sub might get a bit bottom heavy without EQ. In a 40x20 space, you're not likely to see much gain; you could still EQ response to flat, but you'll run into the design limits that much earlier. By contrast, the ports augment the low end output of a vented subwoofer, allowing much more output than you might expect (the PB12-NSD can deliver more than 10dB of additional output @20Hz relative to the sealed SB12-NSD for example).

 

[j_garcia]

Shipping is close to $100 on the Outlaw, so it's well over $650. With the VTF3 being so close in price against an Outlaw LFM-1 EX, get a VTF3, its really just an improved version of the Outlaw. Also, the SW-115 was never reviewed by Audioholics, as far as I know. To the OP, the best subs under $650 shipped are the Hsu VTF2 and the Rythmik LV12r. There is a SVS PB12 NSD on B-stock for $550 which is a hell of a deal, that won't last long though. The Reaction BPS 212 could be a dark horse in this range as well.

I looked it up, and all I see is a preview of the 115, but I could swear there was a review of it because I remember posting in the thread. Oh well.

 

[shadyJ]

Hell you guys have given me a lot to think of. I guess I have to break the bad habit of mainly looking for the RMS numbers and would really hate to lose $650 on what now seems like an impulse buy. I will still go to check it out most likely but not sure on whether to buy.

While I have your attention:
This item is no longer available. - $549 - free shipping ( Ohh hell looks like it is gone now!! )
or
Amazon.com : SVS PC12 NSD 12-inch 400 Watt Powered Cylinder Subwoofer : Svs Subs : Electronics $749 - Free shipping
or
Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX Powered Subwoofer - 649 - 100? shipping

I think I'm most curious as to how the two SVS subs would compare as I'm not seeing much difference between them rather than form? Looks like the PB does a little better below 20Hz? For that price it seems enticing. (and new) Sorry noob question most likely I know.


On a different note, I am very handy and the below plays to RMS side bias -

a) Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm | 295-469
b) Knock-Down MDF 3.0 ft³ Subwoofer Cabinet for Dayton Audio 15 | 300-7078
c) Amazon.com : Crown NXLS1500-0-US Power Amplifier : Musical Instruments

Thanks again for taking the time to respond, this has really been and continues to be a huge help.

The PC12 NSD will perform very similarly to the PB12 NSD, in fact they should be nearly identical. As for comparisons to the Outlaw, there are comparable extensive third party testing for both available at data-bass.com: Outlaw and SVS. Their difference can be summed up as the Outlaw having more mid and upper bass output, and the SVS having cleaner deep bass output. But like I said before, I would go with the Hsu VTF3 over either, it will have cleaner deep bass than the Outlaw and more mid and upper bass then the SVS NSD.

But you say you are handy, so if you can go DIY, you can build a much higher performing sub than any of these for the same price. The Dayton HO would be a great sub. There are a ton of other builds that will get you great bass as well, I suggest you browse around a DIY forum like this one to get some ideas. If it were me, I would go DIY.

 

[TekkSki]

I decided to pass on the rsw15 much to the guys protest obviously. I found a thread in the DIY on the MartySub. Was hoping to get your take on it? I feel like I should be capable of building this box fairly easily.
MartySub Flatpacks

They are recommending the: iST Ltd. sub (too expensive?) but I was hoping to possibly use the: Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 ohm | 295-472 instead. The OHM would obviously depend on the amp.

Possibly using this amp: http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-NU3000DSP-Ultra-Lightweight-High-Density-3000-Watt/dp/B005EHINAS

I'm more mainly curious to see what you guys think about the 2x2x2 Marty in my space. It seems like it can be done at or near my budget while blowing away anything else I was looking at. Thanks for your input again.

 

[shadyJ]

The Martysub would be amazing. If you are equipped to go that route, that is definitely a winner. It will blow all these retail subs away like you said, nothing else comes close for the price.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

My only concern with this recommendation is that your room isn't exactly a good fit for a sealed sub. Generally speaking a sealed sub will typically roll off much earlier than a ported sub, but it does so gradually. In a smaller room, this can be a big benefit, as you naturally see a low end boost in such spaces that could lead to a flat response down to 20Hz, whereas a ported sub might get a bit bottom heavy without EQ. In a 40x20 space, you're not likely to see much gain; you could still EQ response to flat, but you'll run into the design limits that much earlier. By contrast, the ports augment the low end output of a vented subwoofer, allowing much more output than you might expect (the PB12-NSD can deliver more than 10dB of additional output @20Hz relative to the sealed SB12-NSD for example).

Steve is quite right, the room gain from such large room would not be huge, but not none-existing.
Given the proper power (Check - xls1500 is spec'd to deliver 1550w bridged at 4ohm at 1khz - or somewhere around 1100W rms or so) and with a bit of EQ very potent bass could be achieved...

That said, If OP is as handy as he claims, a) someone could model same sub for ported box or b) choose from hundreds of existing and ready DIY subs designs to build a sub for $650 budget which will easily trump most subs under 2-3 times the cost.

I decided to pass on the rsw15 much to the guys protest obviously. I found a thread in the DIY on the MartySub. Was hoping to get your take on it? I feel like I should be capable of building this box fairly easily.
MartySub Flatpacks

They are recommending the: iST Ltd. sub (too expensive?) but I was hoping to possibly use the: Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 ohm | 295-472 instead. The OHM would obviously depend on the amp.

Possibly using this amp: Amazon.com : Behringer NU3000DSP iNuke Ultra-Lightweight, High-Density 3000-Watt Power Amplifier with DSP Control and USB Interface : Musical Instruments

I'm more mainly curious to see what you guys think about the 2x2x2 Marty in my space. It seems like it can be done at or near my budget while blowing away anything else I was looking at. Thanks for your input again.

Behringers amps known to have a noisy fans and less than stellar reliability, Crown XLS1500 is the way to go. DSP models are also not as robust and flexible as a dedicated DSP will do.
MiniDSP is the way to go. Due to super easy integration with REW. IE - you measure the sub response, export the corrections to MiniDSP -> and done.

 

[TekkSki]

I believe that building the box should be no problem for me. Thanks for putting up with a newbie as well.


Looks like the sub is a single 4ohm voice coil rated at 900w RMS so I have to use the crown 1500 amp bridged at 4ohm and 1550w. Would the XLS1000 be a better choice for the sub as the bridged output in 4ohm is 1,100? Would save me $60 it looks like or would I be missing out on something there? I don't think $60 would break the bank for me.

It is shaping up like this can be a huge winner for me! You guys rock.

Also looks like I have some learning to do as I'm not to familiar with what the below means: (I mainly come from the car world of the past) I'm not sure how this relates to the sub amp as well or is this a receiver thing? Any help here would be appreciated. Only if you have time obviously.
"MiniDSP is the way to go. Due to super easy integration with REW. IE - you measure the sub response, export the corrections to MiniDSP -> and done."

* EDIT - Did some more reading and it looks like we are talking about an EQ for the sub. The crown XLS does not have any DSP, the XTI line does but is out of my reach price range wise. It looks like the MiniDSP sells for rougly ~100 range. Which may be something I can add down the road but if I understand it correctly I can get away without right?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

XLS1500 has better analog circuits, less distortion than XLS1000.... If you are really stretched for budget xls1000 would ok, but xls1500 is better choice.
MiniDSP + required audio plug-in software+shipping is $135, but the idea is this - you dont HAVE to get it on day one, but it would really nice to have on day two.
Like said before, From my own research MiniDSP is much more flexible than DSP options which built-in into most pro amps.
Also Crown XLS series has unbalanced (or consumer style) inputs, which should help with integration with your receiver and also regular speaker terminals - not fancy Speak-on only like some other amps....

read more about MiniDSP and REW here:
Auto-EQ tuning with REW | MiniDSP
UMIK-1 setup with REW | MiniDSP

Also great usb microphone (and according to forum feedback, much better option then UMIK) - Dayton Audio UMM-6 USB Measurement Microphone  | 390-808

 

[Too Tall]

The guy selling the rsw-15 happen to be in NH?