Is it the equipment or my rock/metal music?? Plus need help with recommendations - Revel

[nobleknight]

Hello everyone,

So 3 months or so ago I finally decided to allow myself what I've always wanted since being a teenager browsing Stereophile magazine at the library, a true pro setup. Here's the thing, I primarily listen to heavy metal. All over the place from the typical Disturbed, Pantera, Metallica, to black metal such as Dimmu Borgir, death metal such as Nile, power metal like Rhapsody, Stratovarious, techno metal with bass, etc. I've got about 10 cd's I've been listening to on the systems I've been demoing, over and over. One of them is the new Lady Gaga, and man that sounds great on anything. But the other CD's are hit or miss. The main thing I hear is a REVERB to TINNY type sound, like the band is playing off in the corner, or there is a medium echo in the music. This can be heard on all systems to a high (very annoying) degree, or a low degree. The more I turned up subs the more this went away. This also can be heard on cheap systems, but somewhat easily EQ'd away. None of the dealers have any EQ setup so I haven't been able to flirt with that except for the occasional treble knob, which doesn't help much. Does anyone have any idea what I'm talking about or how to find the system that would best eliminate this? The dealers have had several hypotheses from the all too simple "crappy recording being revealed" (which I don't really believe is the case with a number of these such as new Stratovarius and Disturbed's Believe), too "high fi systems shoot for a wide sound stage" to "these are made more for classical, etc." To help explain further I've listed a number of the systems that I've demoed below along with my notes. My apologies on not knowing the exact details of everything. The dealers up here are all VERY friendly, but also don't all exactly have great ability to switch equipment or actually even play the items that they would recommend to me.

**Second part of my question is also advice on the equipment below and any thoughts here or otherwise. My budget for the system (including surround sound, projector etc) is around 80-100k IF I'm totally blown away. Yes I know that is a lot of money. That budget is for a full audio/video system, however, what I'm really concerned about is 2 channel audio. I'm not nearly as picky about movies as I don't even know what to listen for and figure I'll be happy with anything I come up with in that regard (correct me if I'm wrong). My room is fairly large, about 25x45x9 and naturally I haven't heard anything down there yet.

Here's what I've demoed in the shops:

Monitor Audio - Platinums, powered by a Sunfire amp (model unknown), Marantz CD player and preamp, as well as 2 JL Audio F212's, in a large room (20x35). Sounded VERY tinny. Wasn't impressed at all with the Monitors. The JL Audio subs sounded great though and put out a ton of bass.

Revel Salon 2 - powered by an older powerful Crown amp (model unknown), Marantz CD Player and preamp, as well as 2 JL Audio F212's in a large room (20x35x10). Similar setup to the above. One of the best sounding setups yet. There was only a bit of the tininess/reverb sound on this system, but enough for me to question what is going on. Plus the Revels are very pricey (18k) so I want to make sure I get it right. The bass oddly wasn't nearly as impactful with the Salon2's, no idea why, I just didn't seem blown away by it at all, and I had the subs turned up near 3/4 volume.

Paradigm - Signature S8 powered by a McIntosh two channel amp and Mc preamp (CD Player unknown) along with 1 JL Audio F212, in a smallish room (12x15x10). Now, this was probably the best sounding setup of them all. At one point listening to these I had a moment where I was moved, all of a sudden everything came together. I keep thinking this is the system, but I read bad things about the Mc and the Paradigm or not nearly in the same class as some of the speakers so I'm wondering if it was the ROOM. Only one sub and it seemed to just kick hard and the tininess/reverb was to a minimum, especially after the owner made a cable swap (seemed to actually make a difference) based on my complaints. Was it the Mcintosh amps??

I've also listened to Bryston Model 2's, Wilsons (some set around 50k), and B&W (something around 12k), with decent amps but only average subs. Was underwhelmed with all of those, the Model T's sounded the best. The one thing I'm pretty for sure on is that the JL subs easily carried the day in most situations, so I think I'm going to spring for 2 Gotham G213 and assume that will at least totally take care of the bass part of things. I'm hoping to demo the Paradigms again and see if I get the same feeling, and also the Revels again as well as perhaps try the Legacy higher end stuff. Any other recommendations and general advice would be greatly appreciated.


Thank you,


Aaron

 

[ImcLoud]

Did you say 80-100K american dollars? That's a big budget. If I was spending that kind of money I would be contacting the manufacturers and letting them fly me to the facility to check out what they have and how its made....

First- Can you post a picture of the room this system is going in?

Next, for heavy metal music, I would say you don't need to spend that much, and honestly the more you spend the less you are probably going to like it. See with high end systems, clear and loud is possible, but HM IMO sounds best on pro equipment.

The ultimate Heavy metal gear to me would be- a pair of Cerwin Vega XLS215's http://www.amazon.com/Cerwin-Vega-XLS-215-3-Way-Audio-Speaker/dp/B002JGXNHU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1392376126&sr=8-1&keywords=cerwin+vega+xls215 with an xls2500 amplifier Amazon.com : Crown NXLS2500-0-US Power Amplifier : Musical Instruments , and if you want to get really crazy cross the 215's at 50 hz and use a pair of subs for the low end. And with the subs the sky is the limit 18.0 Subwoofer - Funk Audio 18.3 Subwoofer - Funk Audio or if you want to get really crazy JL audio has some sick stuff too... But for my money I would pair the xls215's with a pair of svs ultras....

Thats about the best you are going to get for metal sound... I know the cerwins vegas aren't very attractive, but they will sound the best IMO...

If I were building a LOUD clear system for rock music {I am not crazy about heavy metal} and I couldn't fit or talk my wife into the xls215's, I would go with...

T13 crossed at 70 hz powered by an Emotiva XPA2 and a set of Dual SB13-Ultra , I would use the Emotiva XSP1 as a preamp you could buy that entire system with cables and a stand for around $7500.... It will be more aesthetically pleasing than the cerwins, and my Tekton Lores Scream, they sound awesome with live tracks, the loudest music I listen to is probably Bruce, lol and it sounds awesome through the lores...
The pendragons will handle 200w the xpa2 has 300 so you will have plenty of headroom but with the pens efficiency 200 watts would mean ear bleeding levels since they make 98db with a single watt!!! Couple that with the fact you will cross the pens at 70-80hz and be letting the subs handle the hard to power lows, that system would be so LOUD and clear, I can't picture getting much better...


As far as your budget goes, I think its silly to spend that much on anything with out 4 wheels or a foundation so I won't be a good member to get a recommendation for that kind of budget, but I would bet real money a blind test between what I posted above and what ever you find for 100K will not sound 10-12 times better if at all with metal music since it is one of the only genres that I think needs a separate speaker to sound good, I know with my evo towers metal is not rite, they can't get loud enough and there is something missing.. Its not like you need a perfect refined system for critical listening to appreciate the vocals, smoothness of a saxophone, or crispness of a cymbal, you just need loud, fast, and clear...

 

[Ponzio]

Did you say 80-100K american dollars? That's a big budget. If I was spending that kind of money I would be contacting the manufacturers and letting them fly me to the facility to check out what they have and how its made....

You took the words right out of my mouth. Now if this gentleman is not pulling our pud's, I can't wait to see what his choices are.

At which point do you crossover from unbelievable specs/sound quality to audiophile eye candy extravagance?

 

[ImcLoud]

You took the words right out of my mouth. Now if this gentleman is not pulling our pud's,

That is why I would like to see a picture of the room, maybe even with a laptop in it with AH on the screen.. I would imagine someone with a 100K budget will have quite the impressive room to put it in...

I spent $3K on my formal living room system and its in a 400 sq foot room with 24 ft ceilings, $50K of furniture {that includes the wurlitzer, hdn bar, grand father clock, Parnian seating, ect} But the room a 100K dollar heavy metal music system would go in would be pretty impressive in my mind... Im thinking this chair set for seating PC LOUNGE CHAIR 10 :: Parnian Furniture and some awesome guitar wall art like maybe a custom made Brian Mock metal guitar or 2 on the wall some nie steam punk art here and there..

I actually have this clock in my parlor

 

[sawzalot]

That budget will buy a small bayfront cottage with a slamming 2.2 set up lol

 

[Ponzio]

I actually have this clock in my parlor

Those are nice pieces. local artist?

 

[crossedover]

Four-way reference loudspeaker system
> Dual professional 15-inch 1400W woofers with 4-inch voice coils
> 41-pound / 7-inch carbon fiber compression lower-midrange driver
> Annular diaphragm co-axial upper-mid/high frequency driver
> High Sensitivity: 102dB LF; 114dB MF, 114dB UMF, 114dB HF
> Wide bandwidth design with extension beyond 30kHz
> Maximum output >140dB
> Designed for placement behind acoustically transparent screen
> 8th order crossover slopes
> DSP performance optimized
> Requires four or five channels of PRO amplification
> Capable of “Reference Level” at >12 meters

That should do it should eat up half your budget for 3 of them
http://www.professionalhomecinema.com/

 

[ImcLoud]

I don't own that light, but the clock was only like $100 at a local shop but they are not one of a kind they had more in stock... I have some other steampunk pieces a guitar, a rifle {or gun of some sort}, and a pretty cool bird with a camera lens eye... but I have a friend who has some amazing one of a kind stuff, like a desk made of copper, tin, pig iron, ect very very cool its a roll top that rolls up and down and the top is made out of old copper roofing, he paid over $20 k for it, but I have to say its the focal point of his parlor for sure...

My wife is a stickler for making everything in one room "go", so our formal parlor which Im sure you seen the pics of, has the rosewood evo2's with the subs, the antique-ish furniture, scandanavian style grand father clock, wurlitzer 1080, side out bar, some old guitars, ect... my bedroom has a more modern/old twist theme, dark wood furniture with angles instead of curves, the red tekton lores are in there with the tube amplifier on the hardwood stand, a red saxophone matches the lores a red turntable, unframed art, ect... the walls are a dark burgandy which you would think would clash with the red but it all fits well...

Our living room is more country/steampunk our coffee table is an old wharehouse cart with the iron wheels and hardware, roll top desk, fireplace with the tv over it, its not for entertaining more for just us and comfort than a look...

But my point was with a near 6 figure budget this must be one impressive home... Not that it has to be I know all people have different priorities...

I love that poster, a friend of mines nephew who makes a modest living {cpa} but lives at home at 35 years old in the same bedroom he grew up in bought a brand new G class for $128K, he put 60k down and financed the rest, never told anyone he was considering a new car purchase, just went and did it one day, wrote a check out of his bank account and drove it home, the funny part was his parents only paid $40K for the house he shares with them {years ago, its probably worth around $200K now} but they still have a mortgage on it and still work full time jobs, and he lives with them doesnt pay rent or for food, nothing and comes home with a $130K truck... The father didn't know what the truck cost, he thought it was 50K when he found out it was over 100K he flipped out, told him he needs to buy a house of his own or get an apartment and his son said "I don't have any money now"....

 

[Swerd]

Welcome to AH!

I've got about 10 cd's I've been listening to on the systems I've been demoing, over and over. One of them is the new Lady Gaga, and man that sounds great on anything. But the other CD's are hit or miss.

The main thing I hear is a REVERB to TINNY type sound, like the band is playing off in the corner, or there is a medium echo in the music. This can be heard on all systems to a high (very annoying) degree, or a low degree. The more I turned up subs the more this went away.

My first reaction to this is wonder if this is the first time you've seriously listened to speakers in that price range. What speakers do you normally listen to those CDs with?

By any chance, would it be your car's audio system?

 

[Ponzio]

lives at home at 35 years old in the same bedroom he grew up in

 

[zieglj01]

Find a high-end JBL Synthesis dealer and demo your 10 CD's

However, I believe poor recording quality tends to be the bigger problem.

As the Audio World Turns

 

[its phillip]

Get a full seaton or jtr system and treat your room

 

[ImcLoud]

that is actually common around some parts, lol.... I have a customer, both of their sons {I would guestimate 37-42 years old} live at home, and they don't work!!! I couldn't wait to get out the door, my first son was born before I was 18 and I had already been out of the house for over a year.... My father ruled the house with an iron fist {and the other hand was an iron claw}, so I had no desire to stick around longer than I had to....

Oh yeah, and that customer with the 2 sons at home, they share a bedroom its only a small 2 bed cape they live in, maybe 1500 sq feet total!!!!

 

[ski2xblack]

With that sort of budget I would be headed straight for Danley Sound Labs. Perhaps Seaton. Maybe a full Klipsch Jubilee setup, and pay Roy Delgado to come and calibrate it personally. (Come to think of it, Danley and Seaton systems wouldn't require anywhere near $80K...not sure how much Mr. Delgado would charge.)

 

[DannyA]

Hello everyone,

So 3 months or so ago I finally decided to allow myself what I've always wanted since being a teenager browsing Stereophile magazine at the library, a true pro setup. Here's the thing, I primarily listen to heavy metal. All over the place from the typical Disturbed, Pantera, Metallica, to black metal such as Dimmu Borgir, death metal such as Nile, power metal like Rhapsody, Stratovarious, techno metal with bass, etc. I've got about 10 cd's I've been listening to on the systems I've been demoing, over and over. One of them is the new Lady Gaga, and man that sounds great on anything. But the other CD's are hit or miss. The main thing I hear is a REVERB to TINNY type sound, like the band is playing off in the corner, or there is a medium echo in the music. This can be heard on all systems to a high (very annoying) degree, or a low degree. The more I turned up subs the more this went away. This also can be heard on cheap systems, but somewhat easily EQ'd away. None of the dealers have any EQ setup so I haven't been able to flirt with that except for the occasional treble knob, which doesn't help much. Does anyone have any idea what I'm talking about or how to find the system that would best eliminate this? The dealers have had several hypotheses from the all too simple "crappy recording being revealed" (which I don't really believe is the case with a number of these such as new Stratovarius and Disturbed's Believe), too "high fi systems shoot for a wide sound stage" to "these are made more for classical, etc." To help explain further I've listed a number of the systems that I've demoed below along with my notes. My apologies on not knowing the exact details of everything. The dealers up here are all VERY friendly, but also don't all exactly have great ability to switch equipment or actually even play the items that they would recommend to me.

$80k - $100k won't fix the heavy metal issue but it sure won't hurt. I'm sure the dealers in your area ARE very friendly. I would be too if was going to make an $80 sale. I listen to plenty of hard rock/heavy metal and have had a similar experience. It is the recording IMO. My old Black Sabbath recordings don't sound very good and I expect that but I also expect the more modern bands to have decent recordings. This is not the case. For example, Volbeat (one of my new favorites) sounds really, really good. Seether on the other hand sounds like crap. It could be me and probably is but I have found that the foreign rock/metal bands tend to have better recordings. BTW, how did you squeeze Lady Gaga in to that heavy metal mix?

 

[ImcLoud]

looks pretty heavy to me

 

[shadyJ]

If it were me on that budget, I would get a pair of Funk 18.2 Power Level 2s for the subs. Those will knock the hell out of any JL Audio sub. For speakers, I would look at some JBL M2 Monitors or some Genelec 1038B's. With that you get perfect frequency response and endless dynamic range. If you need something that looks really nice, Volti Vittorias. At $100k, even some JBL Everests also become an option.

Also I think Swerd is right about the reverb, sounds to me like you are accustomed to car audio. If you want to get rid of that reverb, you will have to do so through acoustic treatments.

 

[crossedover]

Pretty sure my original post has what it takes to fill that room, other than danley not many can touch there level of performance
Reference levels at 35' and high sound quality to boot. Was partially joking but if your gonna spend insane money's look at the products. The owner is well known in commercial applications so his back round plus new engineering partners provide high levels of audio

 

[TLS Guy]

Its a total waste of money to buy a high end system for heavy metal rock music. It is conceived to be played back on awful sounds systems. Trash systems for trash music is the way to go.

 

[ImcLoud]

Its a total waste of money to buy a high end system for heavy metal rock music. It is conceived to be played back on awful sounds systems. Trash systems for trash music is the way to go.

I have to agree, to an extent, thats why I recced the xls215 crown xls2500 system, it will be LOUD under $10K and there is no way when playing LOUD rock or metal you will hear the difference between it and an $80K system...

A lot of people come to my home and see the stereo systems and the first thing some ask is "Is it Loud?" and I always say "I don't know", When I am sitting in front of the system I put it at a comfortable level, when I am walking around the house and doing more than just listening to music I will turn it up a bit more, louder than you would want to sit in front of, but I can still hear my phone ring and the door bell if need be... Its 1200 watts RMS so its capable of getting loud, and testing it out a few times I can vouch for it staying nice and clean towards the top end, but there is no sense for that to me, I have a 4000watt pro system for outdoor parties if I want to get stupid loud... In the house, sure once and a while turn it up loud and dance around in your boxer shorts if you are insecure and need to feel like a kid again, but thats only fun once and a while....

I don't care who you are you are not going to listen to 120 dp metal for more than an hour, and if you do, you wont do it for long, because your ears won't last long enough to do it.. Say what you want but loud is useless when it comes to SQ {I'm talking LOUD, like the xls215's with an xls2500 would be capable of}...


But anyway I think its all a moot point, because this seems to be someone just poking around out of curiosity and for fun, it will be the first time I ever heard of someone looking into a $100K Death metal system, lol... The people in them bands can not even afford that.... plus a name from yu gi oh {I have a 13 year old son, I hear him talking about noble knight with his friends}....