Programmable thermostats?

avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
Yeah, that would really get a hacker some street cred. "Woah, YOU'RE the one that turned up the heat on that unknown person in Omaha? Wicked, dude. Wicked." :D
lol ... that's probably what they would say in omaha ... did you grow up there?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Tell him where you and that one famous dude grew up!

It's like the black hole of f^%&in' nowhere! :D
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Tell him where you and that one famous dude grew up!

It's like the black hole of f^%&in' nowhere! :D
I think that I just wet myself a little. I should have known that you would have found that piece of info. :eek:

(Or I posted it here...or it was Facebook.)
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
The scary thing is I remember that show. :eek:
That show was awesome. Granted, I was probably something like five at the time, but still. A show about animals that I could watch with my family while munching on popcorn. Good times. :)

Is it scary because it makes you feel old? :p
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
A few years ago I talked to an old A/C guy. He said that Honeywell wasn't what they use to be and that programmable was problematic. There was one thermostat left that was made in the USA and for like 60 or 70 bucks I could have one. I looked and the name wasn't right on front and I didn't open up the ...

-later-

well, I went back and did open it up. It's ICM Controls. Here's the link to there programmable stuff ... just in case there's anybody out there still buying American made products.

Thermostat | Programmable Thermostat | ICM Controls

EDIT: On Amazon!
 
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Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I think that I just wet myself a little. I should have known that you would have found that piece of info. :eek:

(Or I posted it here...or it was Facebook.)
You posted that here. Wasn't that famous dude like an astronaut or something?
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
On newer furnaces the blower motors are very efficent DC motors, adding up to a small fraction of total run costs but yes, the older units used much more energy. Some people up here (I don't) leave their fans on low speed all the time during the winter to keep the temperature differences lower, this apparently also helps with condensation on cheaper or inefficent windows.

Never seen a single cold air return up here, all have returns in most rooms (except kitchen/bathrooms) but that's probably due to our very cold climate. Running a fan in a single return wouldn't make any sense.
Central return is popular here.. I have seen it all over the country, florida, washington, california, tTN, ect... Just depends on how and who designed and installed it...
As far as ecm motors and furnaces, yes, they are available but take it from someone who installs hundreds of furnaces every year, its not what we install, people don't spend the extra money that a furnace or air handler costs with a variable speed ecm blower... I would estimate that 1 or 2 % of the new systems installed go for the high efficiency chassis models, most will go for {and most are code now, a lot of places outlawed 80+ furnaces} the 90+ furnace but when you say for an extra $1800 you can get the high efficiency chassis which gives you ODR, variable speed ECM blower, modulating burner, ect, they ask what the efficiency is and when you have to tell them its the same burner as the one that is almost 2K cheaper, they hardly ever go for it..
And I am not sure what you consider old, but that technology is new, considering furnaces last 30 years... Circulating air through your duct work can be very inefficient is all I was trying to get at, if your duct work goes through an unheated basement or attic space {as most do} your stand by losses will be extreme even if it is insualted very well {r6 is considered good, r8 is about the best I have ever seen around here and that is rare.... Not going to do much more than stop condensation in the summer months on ac systems, its doesnt do much to stop shedding heat in the winter...
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
You posted that here. Wasn't that famous dude like an astronaut or something?
Proving once again that your stalker-fu is stronger than mine, mostly due to your outstanding memory or perhaps copious notes. :D I posted that four years ago.

I can still cling to my victory of finding Forest Man before you did, but I can wallow in my shame of not remembering his last name. You probably have it tacked to your wall. :p
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
Central return is popular here.. I have seen it all over the country, florida, washington, california, tTN, ect... Just depends on how and who designed and installed it...
As far as ecm motors and furnaces, yes, they are available but take it from someone who installs hundreds of furnaces every year, its not what we install, people don't spend the extra money that a furnace or air handler costs with a variable speed ecm blower... I would estimate that 1 or 2 % of the new systems installed go for the high efficiency chassis models, most will go for {and most are code now, a lot of places outlawed 80+ furnaces} the 90+ furnace but when you say for an extra $1800 you can get the high efficiency chassis which gives you ODR, variable speed ECM blower, modulating burner, ect, they ask what the efficiency is and when you have to tell them its the same burner as the one that is almost 2K cheaper, they hardly ever go for it..
And I am not sure what you consider old, but that technology is new, considering furnaces last 30 years... Circulating air through your duct work can be very inefficient is all I was trying to get at, if your duct work goes through an unheated basement or attic space {as most do} your stand by losses will be extreme even if it is insualted very well {r6 is considered good, r8 is about the best I have ever seen around here and that is rare.... Not going to do much more than stop condensation in the summer months on ac systems, its doesnt do much to stop shedding heat in the winter...
I totally agree, on systems that are not designed for really cold weather, none of this makes any sense. Plus in warmer climates heating costs really don't (well, shouldn't) add up to much so this stuff isn't a big deal except for A/C. Up here though, where we spend 5 months normally well below freezing things are different. Almost all houses here have internal duct work, except those that are very old ones, and have upgraded insulation ... my attic is R60 but R30-50 is common here.

BTW, my house was originally built with "california slider" windows .. two separate panes of glass that just slide in a wood track. Take about losing heat in the winter, those windows were terrible when it got below -30 as you could just feel the cold if you walked within a few feet of them. :eek:
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
We have internal duct work and plumbing down here lol and canada is much colder than new england... we use the same insulation r30+ in attics, but on the actual duct work which is usually above the insulation or inside it to some degree is only r6-r8 from what I have seen and installed...
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
We have internal duct work and plumbing down here lol and canada is much colder than new england... we use the same insulation r30+ in attics, but on the actual duct work which is usually above the insulation or inside it to some degree is only r6-r8 from what I have seen and installed...
lol ... by internal I meant always on the insulated side so the duct work is not really exposed to any real cold, even the cold air returns. On most houses I've seen here the ducting is never run along cold walls, usually it's in the middle of the house which I gather is to minimize loss.

So are the mid-efficency (80%) furnaces really that much ($1800) cheaper? I think I paid around $3200 + taxes (installed) for the Lennox Elite 95% dual stage w/ DC motor.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
So are the mid-efficency (80%) furnaces really that much ($1800) cheaper? I think I paid around $3200 + taxes (installed) for the Lennox Elite 95% dual stage w/ DC motor.
When I did the math high-efficiency furnaces look like an incredibly bad buy at current gas prices. In an unusually cold heating season I spend perhaps $1500 on natural gas, and I have two furnaces. If I save 20% of that, and I'm sure the actual savings is probably more like 10%, it would take a long time to exceed break even.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
lol ... by internal I meant always on the insulated side so the duct work is not really exposed to any real cold, even the cold air returns. On most houses I've seen here the ducting is never run along cold walls, usually it's in the middle of the house which I gather is to minimize loss.

So are the mid-efficency (80%) furnaces really that much ($1800) cheaper? I think I paid around $3200 + taxes (installed) for the Lennox Elite 95% dual stage w/ DC motor.

It depends on the size of your elite, and when you bought it, lennox moves their product lines around a lot... But I get $4100 for a 95+ furnace installed {the permit alone is $400 around these parts, lol}. Now you can get a basic condensing furnace installed for $2400 so yes the difference is substantial... the 95% elites were not the high efficiency I was talking about, I was thinking more along the lines of the Lennox slp98v , the armstrong air a97v, or the carrier Infinity 98 series... Them are all around high efficiency units, the best of everything we are doing rite now, when you step down even one series away from the companies flagships, you get much less, in every aspect, believe me, from the boards to the jacket, its much less impressive...

And Irv you are 100% correct about he hvac units, if you have a small house, tight envelope, or live where you don't use a lot of energy, it wont make sense, the units initial costs as well as maintenance costs coupled with the shorter life spans and more frequent problems a he unit will subject you to will never return.... Now if you have a 4500 sq ft house with windows everywhere in a climate that stays cold all winter and hot all summer, and you want 73 in the winter and 67 in the summer, you will save money, but most of the time, not as much as you expect...
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
When I did the math high-efficiency furnaces look like an incredibly bad buy at current gas prices. In an unusually cold heating season I spend perhaps $1500 on natural gas, and I have two furnaces. If I save 20% of that, and I'm sure the actual savings is probably more like 10%, it would take a long time to exceed break even.
I'm not sure what my actual furnace savings are because I also did a big insulation upgrade at the same time. I can tell you that my heating bills are about 50% lower than previous years but I was replacing the original 50 year old furnace that was maybe 65% efficient.

For me it made perfect sense just because government grants covered a fair bit of my cost, 25% for the furnace and 90% of the insulation. Lennox also rebated a few hundred bucks on top of that as well.

It depends on the size of your elite, and when you bought it, lennox moves their product lines around a lot... But I get $4100 for a 95+ furnace installed {the permit alone is $400 around these parts, lol}. Now you can get a basic condensing furnace installed for $2400 so yes the difference is substantial... the 95% elites were not the high efficiency I was talking about, I was thinking more along the lines of the Lennox slp98v , the armstrong air a97v, or the carrier Infinity 98 series... Them are all around high efficiency units, the best of everything we are doing rite now, when you step down even one series away from the companies flagships, you get much less, in every aspect, believe me, from the boards to the jacket, its much less impressive...
I don't recall what the price was for the one model up "signature series" but obviously the price and/or features didn't impress me to move up from the elite. Plus for only a few more percent in efficiency it likely wouldn't pay itself off.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I'm not sure what my actual furnace savings are because I also did a big insulation upgrade at the same time. I can tell you that my heating bills are about 50% lower than previous years but I was replacing the original 50 year old furnace that was maybe 65% efficient.

For me it made perfect sense just because government grants covered a fair bit of my cost, 25% for the furnace and 90% of the insulation. Lennox also rebated a few hundred bucks on top of that as well.



I don't recall what the price was for the one model up "signature series" but obviously the price and/or features didn't impress me to move up from the elite. Plus for only a few more percent in efficiency it likely wouldn't pay itself off.

The S is a good amount more efficient, my earlier point being the actual combustion efficiency number isn't as important as the companies want you to think, how the system works will save you real percents, we are talking 30% for a properly done delta t/ outdoor reset system {hydronic with storage}... Modulation and temp control via the outdoor temperature is where you save money...

Think of it this way, your biggest foe is being oversized, nothing waste more energy than an oversized flame. Your burner is sized to heat your home to 70 degrees on your design day temperature, around here that is 0 degrees, which makes up for a very small percentage of the heating season {OK not this year, but every other one, lol}. So this means you are over sized and running inefficient for most of the season... To get around this you modulate your burner so what happens is when it is 50 degrees outside and you only need 22K BTU to satisfy your heat loss, that is all the burner fires, as it gets colder the fire rate rises in small increments {thats full modulation} This save heaps of energy, but is a little tricky to make work in a furnace since it is only heating air, boilers with water as a buffer are much easier, so instead of full modulation the do stages, and your elite is a high low furnace {they have had this technology for years, first one was the carrier 2 stage, you controlled with the t-stat, then they switched to a timer, now its much better}.

That being said, the S modulates in 1% increments, so it is as close to full modulation as you can get and when they couple it with the variable speed blower, and their inducer variable suction system {this is where the others really fall behind, even in the low stage your furnace is still sucking the same amount of air out of the heat exchanger and depositing it outside your home as if it were in high fire, where the s modulates this according to the burner level} you get a really good amount of savings... also I have never heard a guieter funace than the S series...

They don't show huge savings in a chart, but that is actually becuase they show the s savings for all of the he lines, not sure why, but they do... Ill bet the s saves over 10% over the E's, and the early E series used to not come with the ss secondary heat exchanger, they now do but it took a while...

All of them are very nice units, I prefer armstrong air and that new carrier unit is sexy {we have done a few of them}, but you pay for it that is for sure, and nothing is as quiet as the S series, the armstrong is close, but that S is almost silent, it even ramps up the fan so you dont get the bang and forced air...

anyway, Ill stop here, since I can talk about this stuff for ever, Its a larger part of my life than it should be, sad to say..
 
avnetguy

avnetguy

Audioholic Chief
It's suprising how oversized old furnaces were, the one I'm running now is almost half the rated BTU. As for the rated efficiency, I think the AFUE does a good enough job to base a buying decission on and in the end, a few percent difference (compared to running an old 65% AFUE) isn't really going to make a world of difference.
 
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