I May lose my Audioholic card for this but...

[j_garcia]

Not making any attempt to find out yourself actually gives you zero credibility in my book also unfortunately, though I do get why you might think that way. They are not charging $50 for foam. It is pretty solid ~1/2" carpeted wood and is intended to be used on the road, not specifically in the home, etc... but you wouldn't know that, because you've never even seen one in person I take it. At least Phillip made the effort to find out. I also didn't say one should run out and drop $50 on this, since one can build one at home that isn't "road worthy" that will do essentially the same thing. I also just said the results may vary depending on a number of factors, so rather than just off hand dismissal, I actually tried it and got results in a few cases. The fact that they weren't measured doesn't mean it was in my head. Auralex is also far from a snake oil company like Monster, and I also doubt they are making the same kind of scam money they are, so we'll just have to continue to agree to disagree on this one and arguing it further is kind of pointless.

I've noticed that even Best Buy started offering inexpensive options for HDMI cables recently too. In the case of the $100 HDMI cable, there's proof that a $10 cable can perform exactly the same. Can't say I've ever paid $100 for a HDMI cable and I'm an early adopter. People got the word and stopped buying Monster cables from Best Buy, so they now offer low cost ones as well, though I am sure they have "incentives" still to sell the $100 ones - so does that make Best Buy a snake oil peddler?

 

[afterlife2]

I made one from foam and rug mat that worked nicely about 2 years ago, but it got ruined: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/diy-corner-tips-techniques/79700-afterlife2s-dyi-homemade-bass-placement-table.html
I'm thinking about making another one.

 

[Kruz]

This has peaked my interest. I live in a townhouse and share 2 walls. Do you think using something like the SubDude would help decrease the vibration my neighbors hear? I ask because one of my neighbor has a subwoofer and I can hear it through my wall. I can't hear his music, just the bass. I might be able to save us both the annoyance by getting one and convincing him to do the same.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

They aren't cheap, they are small sheets of polyurethane foam being sold for $50. Here is a mattress sized piece being sold for $45 shipped. Here is a good sized chunk for $15. Or you could go to any foam packing place and get a subdude sized sample for free. As for the physics, how does a 100 to 300 gram part oscillating at say, 15 mm 35 times a second in a 50 lbs braced, damped cabinet going to vibrate loose stuff on the walls? A sneaky mechanical chain of contact from the cabinet to the floor to the wall to the shelf to loose object x? Or, directly through vibrating air, like what a subwoofer is made to do? Furthermore, physics is a science, and science relies on repeatable quantifiable observations for validation, which is not something subwoofer isolation pads have in their favor.

You would think in such a objectively weighted audio site there would be just a slight bit of skepticism about over-priced gimmicks with zero evidence behind it, but I guess isolation pads get a pass because they sort of seem 'sciencey'.

a) Foam quality/characteristics varies A LOT and on link you have provides it doesn't have nearly the same density. It's apples and oranges.
b) The physics are simple. You could even measure it yourself. For rough idea even a smartphone will do - just grab this app. Place it on the floor near sub and measure. now do same with Sub on auralex made (or DIY) platform
c) I never said that it's impossible to replicate (or get near) the result with DIY, but at $50 cost why should I? For me it's cheap way to get professionally done, proven and highly recommended product
d) Not every sub is well braced, 50lbs and damped properly - As around - many member have "dancing" subs - I imagine 160 lbs PowerSound XV30 wont dance much
e) AH staff seem to like the product quite well :
Auralex SubDude-HT Subwoofer Isolator Preview | Audioholics
Auralex SubDude HD Review | Audioholics

 

[sawzalot]

This has peaked my interest. I live in a townhouse and share 2 walls. Do you think using something like the SubDude would help decrease the vibration my neighbors hear? I ask because one of my neighbor has a subwoofer and I can hear it through my wall. I can't hear his music, just the bass. I might be able to save us both the annoyance by getting one and convincing him to do the same.

That is funny, I thought you were going to say get one and "give it to him" !! I have a feeling that this would be a perfect solution to both of you, did you ever ask him if he can hear/feel your sub, maybe he will follow up with the same question back and then bam , you hit him with the iso pad idea.

 

[sawzalot]

a) Foam quality/characteristics varies A LOT and on link you have provides it doesn't have nearly the same density. It's apples and oranges.
b) The physics are simple. You could even measure it yourself. For rough idea even a smartphone will do - just grab this app. Place it on the floor near sub and measure. now do same with Sub on auralex made (or DIY) platform
c) I never said that it's impossible to replicate (or get near) the result with DIY, but at $50 cost why should I? For me it's cheap way to get professionally done, proven and highly recommended product
d) Not every sub is well braced, 50lbs and damped properly - As around - many member have "dancing" subs - I imagine 160 lbs PowerSound XV30 wont dance much
e) AH staff seem to like the product quite well :
Auralex SubDude-HT Subwoofer Isolator Preview | Audioholics
Auralex SubDude HD Review | Audioholics

I think this sums things up quite nicely. I have never heard any negative comments about these isolation pads, but I did here a lot of positive comments.

 

[shadyJ]

a) Foam quality/characteristics varies A LOT and on link you have provides it doesn't have nearly the same density. It's apples and oranges.
b) The physics are simple. You could even measure it yourself. For rough idea even a smartphone will do - just grab this app. Place it on the floor near sub and measure. now do same with Sub on auralex made (or DIY) platform
c) I never said that it's impossible to replicate (or get near) the result with DIY, but at $50 cost why should I? For me it's cheap way to get professionally done, proven and highly recommended product
d) Not every sub is well braced, 50lbs and damped properly - As around - many member have "dancing" subs - I imagine 160 lbs PowerSound XV30 wont dance much
e) AH staff seem to like the product quite well :
Auralex SubDude-HT Subwoofer Isolator Preview | Audioholics
Auralex SubDude HD Review | Audioholics

A) the density of the auralex foam isn't likely to be anything special. I'm sure you can still buy the same thing for a fraction of the price.
B) If the physics are so simple, why haven't these pads ever been demonstrated to work? The burden of proof is not on me here.
C) If throwing $50 away on a piece of foam is not a big deal to you, you are a fortunate person.
D) If the sub is so poorly made that the cabinet vibrates enough to cause things to rattle, putting a subdude under that is like treating an amputated arm with a band aid and an aspirin.
E) I don't remember seeing those 'reviews' before. Those content free puff pieces are pretty sad for audioholics.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

A) the density of the auralex foam isn't likely to be anything special. I'm sure you can still buy the same thing for a fraction of the price.
B) If the physics are so simple, why haven't these pads ever been demonstrated to work? The burden of proof is not on me here.
C) If throwing $50 away on a piece of foam is not a big deal to you, you are a fortunate person.
D) If the sub is so poorly made that the cabinet vibrates enough to cause things to rattle, putting a subdude under that is like treating an amputated arm with a band aid and an aspirin.
E) I don't remember seeing those 'reviews' before. Those content free puff pieces are pretty sad for audioholics.

I am starting to see how you got stuck on minute details and fail to see bigger picture. I also starting to get pretty good idea why your feedback is full...

p.s: a) you are still missing the point. Yes - you could buy it at reduced price as do it yourself. You may even save a dollar or two if you actually build IDENTICAL product, not just similar one.
B) you are the one claiming it's all bogus, so the burden of proof is indeed on you dear sir c) if you still think that subdude is just a piece of foam without actually seeing the product, I have better things to do than to argue with you; And finally most amusing is E) couldn't give a crap less if you have seen them or not. The fact is these products are highly recommended by AH. What else do you want?

 

[shadyJ]

The fact is these products are highly recommended by AH. What else do you want?

Evidence. Data. Anything that supports the claims of the manufacturers. I would hope there would be more questions about a product being sold on such dubious physics with no supporting data in a market crawling with as much guile as the hi-fi audio. It would be hypocritical of those who defend these pads to approach boutique cables with incredulity. It's a shame that Audioholics promoted this nonsense without even bothering to check if it worked or not.

 

[sawzalot]

[video=vimeo;15561583]http://vimeo.com/15561583[/video]

 

[Irishman]

Oh yeah, you can actually order Monoprice stuff on Bestbuy.com I found.

They're a reseller on there.

 

[j_garcia]

Evidence. Data. Anything that supports the claims of the manufacturers. I would hope there would be more questions about a product being sold on such dubious physics with no supporting data in a market crawling with as much guile as the hi-fi audio. It would be hypocritical of those who defend these pads to approach boutique cables with incredulity. It's a shame that Audioholics promoted this nonsense without even bothering to check if it worked or not.

Where's the evidence and data on how your brain works? Yep, science still can't tell you how memory works, but apparently even though science can't explain it, it still happens.

If you want data, go buy one and measure to your heart's content.

 

[fuzz092888]

Who knew people felt so passionately about vibration reduction

 

[sawzalot]

It seems like more and more than not, any topic that relates to our hobby, no matter how informative it could be chock full of decent tips , thoughts and even experiences through first hand knowledge always and I mean always turns into bantering > arguing to the point of derailment and finally a closed thread.
If some one doesn't like iso pads then don't buy them , but also don't trash em and make people that have them, and like them, feel stupid about their decisions to introduce said items into their respective HT set ups. I don't have them but I would like too as my subs vibrate, heck they will vibrate joint compound loose and my cabinets are probably built as good if not better than any cabinet out there, why , cause I built them. I will order grammas soon.

 

[zhimbo]

Where's the evidence and data on how your brain works? Yep, science still can't tell you how memory works, but apparently even though science can't explain it, it still happens.

I don't think anyone is arguing for complete knowledge...but it's easy to show, objectively, that memory *exists*.

He's asking PRECISELY the same questions that people ask re:'Audiophile' speaker wire and power cords, and no one seems to accept anecdotal reports or sneer at the idea of objective data in those cases. I'm a little appalled at the attitudes here regarding backing up claims and accepting the voice of authority.

That said, it looks a bit like SOME data actually exists: Auralex, at least, as provided some data and measurements, which is referred to in both the review and preview linked to. While I would certainly like some sort of third-party and real-world verification, there's at least a starting point for discussion.

I think Shady is too dismissive - just because the data he wants may be scarce doesn't make something clearly bullshit - but I find it strange that he gets essentially the arguments used to support utter b.s. snake-oil as his reply: "Science doesn't know everything" and "data isn't relevant in the face of my personal prone-to-bias perception".

 

[j_garcia]

Yes, we know memory *exists*, but science cannot explain exactly by what mechanism it actually works. Does one need an in-depth explanation of WHY it works to have proof that it does (in that case specifically)?

I've tried a TON of wires and cables and found NOTHING to support expensive cables, and I didn't do measurements on them either, but I went out and TRIED different ones to see if I could tell or not. Just like I tried out a Gramma to see what it would do or not do. I'd already seen the Gramma review here before, though I had already had mine for a few years prior to that. NOBODY said data wasn't relevant, only that for this particular product, it isn't plentiful. That doesn't nullify real world experience.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I offered him a cheap,but granted, a crude way, of measuring the effects, which he dismissed rather quickly. Yes, science can measure vibrations or lack of them.
It's just the matter of getting the right tools. Accelerometer in the smartphone might not be precise sufficiently and I am no scientist, but this is a very basic matter of proving this base reduces vibration....

BUT NOW, how this reduction of vibration to the floor helps the sound - that could also be measured with good microphone and some free software.

It's not magic people.

 

[j_garcia]

I no longer have my Gramma OR the sub that was sitting on it. They were stolen from my house, so can't do any measurements with the specific product at the moment.

 

[shadyJ]

The burden of proof does not lay on me. I am not making a positive assertion; you are asking me to disprove that the world is flat. I agree that evidence should be easy to produce, so why hasn't it been done? An accelerometer should work, or maybe compare SPL spectrographs against a control. The chart of Auralex's site is so vague that it is worthless. SVS does the same thing with their $50 rubber feet. They claim the feet work and also claim to have data to back that up, but they were unable to produce that data when called on it.

 

[Irishman]

The burden of proof does not lay on me. I am not making a positive assertion; you are asking me to disprove that the world is flat. I agree that evidence should be easy to produce, so why hasn't it been done? An accelerometer should work, or maybe compare SPL spectrographs against a control. The chart of Auralex's site is so vague that it is worthless. SVS does the same thing with their $50 rubber feet. They claim the feet work and also claim to have data to back that up, but they were unable to produce that data when called on it.

In this case, since none of us have studies quantifying the Subdude's effect (or lack thereof), the only way you're going to answer that question for yourself is to either do one of two things - buy one for yourself and A/B it, or find someone near you who has one, and ask to see if they'll let you demo it installed and removed.

Is this possible?