Starting to really dislike LR4 crossovers!

[cschang]

Speaker design starts with driver selection and trying to pick a good marriages. Then you use what crossover orders you have to, to produce a nice smooth response. In my experience the two halves of a crossover are never symmetrical, but the combined electrical and acoustic slopes are. The other issue is to make sure the drivers are operating in their appropriate power bands.

You can even start with driver development to get the ultimate in marriages.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes and you can design 10 speakers using your method and only one might actually sound good. What you propose does not guarantee good sound.

Well, that is where R & D come in. Producing a first class speaker is a long road.

The point is my approach has the promise of eventual success, yours guarantees a dreadful result.

 

[cpp]

How come Dennis? I'd like to hear your thoughts! Am I wrong in what I theorize?

Here's the thing, you are the OP and you stated that

Starting to really dislike LR4 crossovers

you noted hearing as your reason

To me, LR4s sound unnatural, flat, dead, lifeless, small soundstage, impossible integration between the tweeter and the woofer, harsh, tizzy, etc​

. Do you have any technical details on why ? do you have any waveforms on the speakers (which ones) you have heard to support what you hear ?

Also have you actually designed a speaker cabinet and a crossover network.

FYI: I think this could turn into a pretty good thread that could benefit a lot of people.

 

[TheStalker]

Here's the thing, you are the OP and you stated that you noted hearing as your reason . Do you have any technical details on why ? do you have any waveforms on the speakers (which ones) you have heard to support what you hear ?

Also have you actually designed a speaker cabinet and a crossover network.

FYI: I think this could turn into a pretty good thread that could benefit a lot of people.

I don't have technical details. We don't yet have enough knowledge nor the measuring techniques to explain most of psycho acoustics. All I can tell you is what I hear. I've designed more speakers than some manufacturers. I use measurements to get me to a certain ballpark and then it's all trial and error and a lot of listening.

P.S. What I do have are theories and trends that I can observe. Like I overwhelmingly prefer plastic cones over metal. Or hard domes over ribbons. Or LR2 over LR4.

I've made a list of 50+ speakers that are my favorite of all time and then I started looking deeper on why. 90% of the speakers either had a silk, or a hard dome (aluminum, beryllium, diamond) tweeter. 90% of them had some sort of plastic midwoofer, i.e. poly, Kevlar, Bextrene, etc. And all but one had shallow slopes.

This is not accidental, or random.

 

[cschang]

I don't have technical details. We don't yet have enough knowledge nor the measuring techniques to explain most of psycho acoustics. All I can tell you is what I hear. I've designed more speakers than some manufacturers. I use measurements to get me to a certain ballpark and then it's all trial and error and a lot of listening.

P.S. What I do have are theories and trends that I can observe. Like I overwhelmingly prefer plastic cones over metal. Or hard domes over ribbons. Or LR2 over LR4.

I've made a list of 50+ speakers that are my favorite of all time and then I started looking deeper on why. 90% of the speakers either had a silk, or a hard dome (aluminum, beryllium, diamond) tweeter. 90% of them had some sort of plastic midwoofer, i.e. poly, Kevlar, Bextrene, etc. And all but one had shallow slopes.

This is not accidental, or random.

Can we see the list of 50?

For most consumer speakers, I would imagine the majority of tweeters are dome types....and woofers, other than metal or paper, are some sort of "plastic" as you have defined.

 

[TheStalker]

Can we see the list of 50?

For most consumer speakers, I would imagine the majority of tweeters are dome types....and woofers, other than metal or paper, are some sort of "plastic" as you have defined.

Vintage Thiel
Vintage Goldmund
Spica
Dynaudio
Current B&W
Certain Sonus Faber
Certain Focal
Certain Totem

Plus a few that I've personally designed. You get the idea

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Ya know Stalker dude, it's too bad you don't live in Washington, D.C. I bet I could build a pair of fabric dome and paper woofer monitors using a 2nd order crossover and another pair with a 4th, a pair using a metal dome and metal woofer with a 2nd and a 4th, and then a pair using a nice ribbon and most any woofer with a 4th, slap a blindfold on you, play them all for you and you wouldn't have a clue which was which. Unless--you were discerning enough to hear the superior realisim of the ribbon tweet in the upper highs.

 

[Chu Gai]

You can even start with driver development to get the ultimate in marriages.

Yeah, but over half of marriages end in divorce.

 

[TheStalker]

Ya know Stalker dude, it's too bad you don't live in Washington, D.C. I bet I could build a pair of fabric dome and paper woofer monitors using a 2nd order crossover and another pair with a 4th, a pair using a metal dome and metal woofer with a 2nd and a 4th, and then a pair using a nice ribbon and most any woofer with a 4th, slap a blindfold on you, play them all for you and you wouldn't have a clue which was which. Unless--you were discerning enough to hear the superior realisim of the ribbon tweet in the upper highs.

Yeah, I've heard that before. Don't be so sure of yourself.

Plus, metal tweeters, plastic woofers, and shallow slopes may not be all which makes a speaker sound good. But it's certainly part of the trend. I would do a blind folded test and simply state if the speaker sounds great, mediocre, or poor. Then it would be fun to see what the great sounding speakers have in common.

Having said that, I've already participated in tests like that. Results: metal tweeter, plastic woofer, shallow crossover slope is recurring and have the best chance of being labeled great by my ear.

The other phenomena that I've been studying recently is pairing of tweeters and midwoofers. I'll have more on that later.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Yeah, I've heard that before. Don't be so sure of yourself.

Having said that, I've already participated in tests like that. Results: metal tweeter, plastic woofer, shallow crossover slope is recurring and have the best chance of being labeled great by my ear.

The other phenomena that I've been studying recently is pairing of tweeters and midwoofers. I'll have more on that later.

Right. Would care to document which tests those were, when they took place, and the methodology? As for pairing tweetersand midwoofers--yes, one usually does that. Please--enough already. And Merry Xmas. To all.

 

[Chu Gai]

I'm going to generalize a bit here, but I've heard it said that when in doubt, throw a LR 4th order on it because it's less work. You don't have to worry as much about the ill effects of cone breakups and it makes driver selection a bit easier by opening up the possibilities. Further it allows one to choose more boutique bass or mid bass drivers that have exemplary performance within a certain range and the misbehavior outside of that can be addressed by the higher order and some select filtering. Mind you now these are generalizations intended to cover an exceedingly wide range of people and companies that make product either for their own or consumers.

 

[TheStalker]

Right. Would care to document which tests those were, when they took place, and the methodology? As for pairing tweetersand midwoofers--yes, one usually does that. Please--enough already. And Merry Xmas. To all.

Just for fun and experimentation: Buy a Beryllium Scanspeak tweeter and either a 5" or a 7" Audio Technology midwoofer. Build a simple LR2 crossover and use a slanted front baffle to keep crossover part count to a minimum, 10 parts, or so. You'll forget that RAAL tweeter very quickly! Just do it for fun

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, I don't like the LR4 crossover. I don't like the LR2 crossover either. I prefer the Range Rover SUV.

 

[TheStalker]

Yeah, I don't like the LR4 crossover. I don't like the LR2 crossover either. I prefer the Range Rover SUV.

Then buy yourself that piece of garbage and be done with it!

 

[Swerd]

I'm going to generalize a bit here, but I've heard it said that when in doubt, throw a LR 4th order on it because it's less work. You don't have to worry as much about the ill effects of cone breakups and it makes driver selection a bit easier by opening up the possibilities. Further it allows one to choose more boutique bass or mid bass drivers that have exemplary performance within a certain range and the misbehavior outside of that can be addressed by the higher order and some select filtering. Mind you now these are generalizations intended to cover an exceedingly wide range of people and companies that make product either for their own or consumers.

That pretty well says what I understand.

As always with any generalization – the devil is in the details.

 

[defmoot]

Then buy yourself that piece of garbage and be done with it!

"Starting to really dislike..."

TheStalker.

.

.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Just for fun and experimentation: Buy a Beryllium Scanspeak tweeter and either a 5" or a 7" Audio Technology midwoofer. Build a simple LR2 crossover and use a slanted front baffle to keep crossover part count to a minimum, 10 parts, or so. You'll forget that RAAL tweeter very quickly! Just do it for fun

I've actually done that very thing except for the sloped baffle. It was a very nice sounding system. A very expensive nice sounding system. That lacked a little detail in the upper midrange because the poly AT drivers are slightly smeared there, and that lacked the air of the RAAL. I really did build it--I can send you the schematics. Now, about those blind tests you said you participated in....?

 

[TheStalker]

I've actually done that very thing except for the sloped baffle. It was a very nice sounding system. A very expensive nice sounding system. That lacked a little detail in the upper midrange because the poly AT drivers are slightly smeared there, and that lacked the air of the RAAL. I really did build it--I can send you the schematics. Now, about those blind tests you said you participated in....?

So it was LR4? Where did you have it crossed? Just curious! And for someone who's using RAALs, you shouldn't have made the "expensive" jab

P.S. Did Santa bring any cool speaker related equipment?

 

[Dennis Murphy]

So it was LR4? Where did you have it crossed? Just curious! And for someone who's using RAALs, you shouldn't have made the "expensive" jab

P.S. Did Santa bring any cool speaker related equipment?

I did a 2nd order and a 4th. I almost always do with drivers that are this well behaved and robust. But i can't remember which I went with. I'm traveling and don't have access to my audio computer. Nothing audio for Xmas. That's for the other 364 days of the year.

 

[Chu Gai]

Ya know Stalker dude, it's too bad you don't live in Washington, D.C. I bet I could build a pair of fabric dome and paper woofer monitors using a 2nd order crossover and another pair with a 4th, a pair using a metal dome and metal woofer with a 2nd and a 4th, and then a pair using a nice ribbon and most any woofer with a 4th, slap a blindfold on you, play them all for you and you wouldn't have a clue which was which. Unless--you were discerning enough to hear the superior realisim of the ribbon tweet in the upper highs.

Let me play devil's advocate here. Let's say you're essentially correct. Assuming you're talking about the RAAL, how can you be sure that the superior realism isn't related more to its dispersion characteristics rather than say the oft stated decay characteristics? If so, maybe other sorts of planar tweeters might also prove to be similarly difficult to tell apart.