when to upgrade to separates

[3db]

I was speaking comparatively, for example your v1800 cost around $1100 new? Its worth under $200 now, If you bought a an XPA5 in 2008 it would have cost you under $700 and rite now its will sell on ebay for around $600, and if you read my posts you will see I don't think pre pro's are the answer, I bought my emo pros because I got great deals on them, but the better buy is a refurbed or left over avr with preouts...

As far as not knowing electronics aren't an investment, I guess you and me think about money differently, because ANYTHING I spend my money on, is an investment, I expect a return in some way, sure if I buy food or clothes, my return is nourishment and being clothed but when I purchase tangible goods like a car my where my return is transportation I still have the expectation of some type of monetary return when I am done with it... With something like electronics where I upgrade often I want the equipment I am trading in to be worth enough to off set the balance of the new purchase, so I try to buy materials with high resale values, I incorporate this into all my spending, when I bought my wife her suv the deciding factor to get an unlimited rubicon was its high resale value, if you don't take resale "worth" into consideration when making a purchase you are silly or have way too much money. Just sayin ....

The XPA5 is an amp and yes, most amps hold their value. Their pre/pros don't fair so well and you would be hard pressed to get $200 for a 5 year old unit as well. The best combo would be an AVR with preouts mated to an AVR. But expect a significant loss for a used pre/pro that will not help you offset the purchase on your new prepro. BTW, the only reason why amps hold their value is that they don't become obsolete like a pre/pro or an AVR. At least with AVRs from Yamaha, and Denon, they aren't behind the technology like most pre/pors. The general rule for electronics is that they do NOT retain their value period.

 

[ImcLoud]

Go back to my posts on page 1, post #2 and #4, I say to buy an avr with preouts and an amp if he wants more power, over buying a $1000 AVR. I stand by that, Im not sure where this is going but that is all I was stating, if you don't {or do agree, I can't tell at this point} it is my opinion take it or leave it. I personally would rather have more power and some resale value vs uummmm?? not having more power and less resale value...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Guys, it's not about what WE would do. It's about what the OP would do.

If he inexorably feels he must own separates at some point in his life, then why not NOW?

Why fight the inevitable?

Just get it over with.

 

[3db]

Guys, it's not about what WE would do. It's about what the OP would do.

If he inexorably feels he must own separates at some point in his life, then why not NOW?

Why fight the inevitable?

Just get it over with.

Because resistance is futile?

 

[ratso]

as long as you have pre-outs i can see no reason to have separates unless you just want to have them. you could always add a power amp later to an AVR and with the cost of a AV preamp you can get a nice AVR to start with.

edit: woops. so in other words what grador said earlier.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Because resistance is futile?

Oh, gods yes.

 

[wilejoe]

.

It is a good idea to get a separate amplifier if and only if your speakers are difficult to drive and would benefit from more power that you cannot reasonably get in a receiver. Even then, it usually is a good idea to buy a receiver with preamp outputs instead of a preamp, because usually the receiver will be cheaper and have more features.


Another important consideration is reliability. Judging by complaints people make online, Yamaha is about as reliable as you can get. It does not matter how great something is supposed to be, if it does not work right and gives you trouble.

So if I get a receiver with preamp outputs and add a ATI amp to it I would have volume control, a temporary DAC, and an analog cd input and would be using the amp for my power to the speakers

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So if I get a receiver with preamp outputs and add a ATI amp to it I would have volume control, a temporary DAC, and an analog cd input and would be using the amp for my power to the speakers

An AVR w/ pre-out functions like a pre-pro.

Temporary DAC? The DAC inside AVRs will sound as good as any outboard DAC.

 

[PENG]

An AVR w/ pre-out functions like a pre-pro.

Temporary DAC? The DAC inside AVRs will sound as good as any outboard DAC.

Only if people think the DAC inside is an outboard one.

 

[PENG]

An AVR w/ pre-out functions like a pre-pro.

Temporary DAC? The DAC inside AVRs will sound as good as any outboard DAC.

After reading this:

24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed

I think the DAC inside AVRs may actually be superior.

 

[Pyrrho]

So if I get a receiver with preamp outputs and add a ATI amp to it I would have volume control, a temporary DAC, and an analog cd input and would be using the amp for my power to the speakers

You would have all of the features of the receiver that you could use. All of the control settings, like volume, tone controls, balance, etc., affect the preamp outputs, so you have all of the features of the receiver available for your use. In such use, as AcuDefTechGuy states, the receiver would be functioning as a preamp. A receiver, in fact, is a tuner (radio), preamp, and power amp, all in one box. It may also have various processors (for audio and/or video). If you use the preamp outputs of a receiver, you are simply bypassing the power amp section of the receiver, and using it as a preamp (and tuner and processor, if there is one).

The reason to do this is if one has difficult to drive speakers, and therefore needs a better performing amplifier than what is in the receiver. For most people, the built-in amplifiers in the receiver will be adequate, and so for most people, buying a separate power amp is a waste of money. But for those who need it, it obviously is not a waste of money.

Also, as AcuDefTechGuy states, the DACs in receivers these days are fine.

 

[RichB]

How about this DAC:

Your first Digital to Analog Converter build

I suspect anyone who has played with a outboard DAC and with different driver settings, might be surprised by that experiment.

The Marantz AV8801 does not sound the same as the analog outputs of the BDP-105 playing CD or via its USB DAC.
There is a lot more than a DAC chip to the sound of a processor.


- Rich

 

[Pyrrho]

How about this DAC:

Your first Digital to Analog Converter build

I suspect anyone who has played with a outboard DAC and with different driver settings, might be surprised by that experiment.

The Marantz AV8801 does not sound the same as the analog outputs of the BDP-105 playing CD or via its USB DAC.
There is a lot more than a DAC chip to the sound of a processor.


- Rich

If one does not carefully level match the audio using the different methods, they will likely be at slightly different levels, which means that they won't sound the same. But that does not show that any of them are actually audibly better or worse; one has the same type of effect by adjusting the volume control. If it is turned up or down from a position, things sound different.

The level matching should be 0.1dB or less, which is not something the average person is going to be able to do, and consequently the average person isn't going to be in a position to test these things properly at all.

 

[jalesi]

The trick becomes finding an AVR with preouts. General observations tells me that is mostly a thing of the past.

 

[Pyrrho]

The trick becomes finding an AVR with preouts. General observations tells me that is mostly a thing of the past.

Most high end (i.e., expensive) receivers still have preamp outputs. For example, the Yamaha RX-A2020. Look for yourself:

rx-a2020_black_u

But you are right about them becoming increasingly rare on inexpensive models. My guess is that this is due to strong competition for price, and having them adds some cost to the unit. And since most people will not use them (and have no reason to use them), they are not missed by the majority of the target audience.

 

[jalesi]

You are correct, and I possibly need to 1. go to bed and/or 2. stop over thinking the pre out issue. Or better yet, I need another beer.

It has to be demand and cost, and not particularly in that order I'm sure. I have also noticed that phono inputs seem to be increasingly rare, and for those of us with record players, that is not good.

 

[RichB]

If one does not carefully level match the audio using the different methods, they will likely be at slightly different levels, which means that they won't sound the same. But that does not show that any of them are actually audibly better or worse; one has the same type of effect by adjusting the volume control. If it is turned up or down from a position, things sound different.

The level matching should be 0.1dB or less, which is not something the average person is going to be able to do, and consequently the average person isn't going to be in a position to test these things properly at all.

Have you tried a USB DAC with different drivers like WASAPI, ASIO, and Kernel streaming and altered some of the parameters?

This is presumably the same digital data sent to the DAC and yet clear differences in the sound quality can be heard. In this case, level matching is not required.

In an AVR/Preamp there are power supply difference, stray noise, etc. which do exist.
Some folks here must believe in that or they would not have shelled out for an AVP.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

After reading this:

24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed

I think the DAC inside AVRs may actually be superior.

You're right. I was being generous.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The trick becomes finding an AVR with preouts. General observations tells me that is mostly a thing of the past.

The Denon X4000 is hot now. But if you wait until the next model year comes out, expect to see up to 50% off.

Actually, some friendly dealers may be able to get you close to 50% off now.

But I've seen the previous year models like the Denon 3310/3311/3312 sell for about $500-$550. All these have pre-outs like a pre-pro and measure like a pre-pro (THD, SNR, Crosstalk, FR).

A lot of people don't realize that. These AVRs (Yamaha, Pioneer, Denon, Marantz, even Sony) measure like separate pre-pros. They measure like pre-pro, they sound like pre-pro in Direct mode. But Sub EQ/ Dynamic EQ will differ.

 

[jalesi]

My new internal debate is now with Denon and Yamaha. I think I'm leaning toward the Yamaha, but Denon's Audyssey is supposed to be good. That said, I never used it on my Onkyo nor on my first Denon, but I don't remember if it was available back then.