fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I've been looking around, but haven't found a lot of information on a WTM center channel speaker. I was just looking for more information and opinions on this style, pros, cons vs a more traditional arrangement.

 
theJman

theJman

Audioholic Chief
That looks like something from Source Technologies.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
That looks like something from Source Technologies.
That it is. John is the only guy I know that has a center speaker which looks like a MTM, but is really a WTM. I'm going to ask him when I go over to his shop sometime in the next couple of weeks, but I thought I could pick some brains on here before I see him.
 
theJman

theJman

Audioholic Chief
That it is. John is the only guy I know that has a center speaker which looks like a MTM, but is really a WTM. I'm going to ask him when I go over to his shop sometime in the next couple of weeks, but I thought I could pick some brains on here before I see him.
Maybe while you're their I'll have you ask him where my stuff is. :p He was targeting the 3rd week of April for a shipment of a few things to me. Have you heard many of John's speakers? I've only had personal experience with the HVS-10 thus far.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
It doesn't surprise me he's late. I've been asking him about getting that cabinet cut for quite some time now and he keeps telling me he's slammed. Last e-mail I sent him went unanswered, which usually never happens.

The one's I've heard are the two pairs I own, which are below, plus a couple older designs. One is an older version of the CC-4, plus a pair of towers with an active woofer/subwoofer; the LS-26's; a pair of rear surrounds with dipole mids, a side firing woofer, and a top firing tweeter; and a couple subs. One is a PR sub and the other is down firing. I believe they both use the same driver and are older designs than what's on the website now. Hopefully if and when I go, it will be with Walter to pick up a pair of 15" isobaric subwoofers, which are supposed to be monsters.

I'm curious about the center because my HT no longer uses the Phil's so I'm curious how a matching center would sound, then I'd have an all Source HT system.





 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I've been looking around, but haven't found a lot of information on a WTM center channel speaker. I was just looking for more information and opinions on this style, pros, cons vs a more traditional arrangement.

Your biggest plus is that they are from the same designer. However that does not mean they will always match as a lot of brands have speakers that sound totally different as you go from one model to the other.

But to answer your question WTM it is a really bad idea. MTM is bad enough, and I would never do it, but this will be worse. The problem is lobing error. The dispersion will be such that ceiling and floor reflections will be maximized to exaggerate room defects. The crucial horizontal dispersion will be lumpy bumpy, and it that design extremely so, as well as asymmetric. That is to say the left lobe will be different form the right lobe.

I had a quick look on that guy's website and he seems to have some other designs that are absolute non starters.

If I have leaned one thing, you start with the laws of physics on your side: always.
 
theJman

theJman

Audioholic Chief
The one's I've heard are the two pairs I own, which are below, plus a couple older designs.
Those look very nice!


Hopefully if and when I go, it will be with Walter to pick up a pair of 15" isobaric subwoofers, which are supposed to be monsters.
I would love to hear that myself. Something about the concept behind the isobaric design fascinates me.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I would love to hear that myself. Something about the concept behind the isobaric design fascinates me.
An Isobarik design reduces the VAS of the driver by 50%. So it means you get the same performance from two drivers as you would for one in a volume twice as large.

The volume reduction is not quite 50% as you have the displacement of two drivers + the coupling tunnel, if you don't want the chassis of one of the drivers hanging outside the box.

The disadvantages are two drivers to give the performance of one for twice the power consumption of one driver for the same spl. So efficiency is halved.

The only advantage is reduced enclosure size, which of course can be a big advantage.

The credit for thinking of this design goes to Ivor Sigmund Tiefenbrun, founder of Linn Electronics.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks! I'm pretty excited because Walter says he is getting two of them and he might leave me with one so that I can compare it to the others I have. I'm really curious to see how it performs.

I forget if I ever said so, but I really liked that HVS sub review you did for Source. Can you spill the beans on what models you have coming to you?

Those look very nice!

I would love to hear that myself. Something about the concept behind the isobaric design fascinates me.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks, Dr. Mark. Always great to hear from you. That's exactly what I was wondering about, the lobing and the other problems. I know the issues with MTM's have been well documented and I figured the issues would be somewhat similar.

I have to say, I'd still be interested in hear one :D
 
theJman

theJman

Audioholic Chief
I forget if I ever said so, but I really liked that HVS sub review you did for Source. Can you spill the beans on what models you have coming to you?
Since the HVS-10 I've reviewed a pair of Kreisel Sound DXD-808's, a 3.0 system consisting of Arx A1b/A2b speakers, both the SVS PB1000 and SB1000, the TruAudio CSUB-12 and the NXG NX-BAS-500. This weekend I'll be publishing my Rythmik LV12R review. And after that? I'm not telling. :D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks, Dr. Mark. Always great to hear from you. That's exactly what I was wondering about, the lobing and the other problems. I know the issues with MTM's have been well documented and I figured the issues would be somewhat similar.

I have to say, I'd still be interested in hear one :D
Thank you. The center really is the most difficult to design speaker in the whole HT area by far. In terms of the technical challenge it leaves all other speakers in the HT system way in the shade. When it comes to speech the ear is just not easily fooled. I have heard quite a few systems at dealers now and the center always lets the show down. I'm yet to hear a natural integrated center in any showroom yet.

I do believe a center has to be as close as possible to point source and any crossover must get as close as they can to getting out of the speech discrimination band. Cone type coverage over the listening area works best.

I just built this 4" JW driver from scratch for the center at our Eagan home. It is full range and BSC, what little it need as it is wall mounted is built into the cone.



So the single cone is connected directly to the amp.

It is really natural and my wife, an excellent audio critic, loves it. It has natural speech with excellent speech discrimination at very low volumes.

Audyssey crosses it over to the isobarik subs in the R & L mains at 90 Hz, which is correct. The unit is sealed, and by the way, I think a center speaker should NEVER be a ported design. So since it is sealed it is second order roll off, so the acoustic and electrical crossover is composite fourth order.

The 4" center speaker is 8 ohm, the mains are four ohm. However the sensitivities of the 4" unit and the drivers in the mains are virtually identical. However the Audyssey settings showed the single 4" cone to be 3 db more sensitive. So you can see how even a low part count crossover in the mains, consumes half the amplifier power. So the center only takes one quarter of the amp power the mains do for the same spl.

It really holds its end up on music also. I played the Mahler 8, that has a large number of soloists at a volume I was afraid might garner complaints from the neighbors. The unit showed no sign of distress. It blends with the mains perfectly.

This will get me into further refinement of this driver. This is technology from 1959 that has been wrongly ignored and not further developed which is a tragedy. Although I have to admit, the cone is very expensive to manufacture. However with modern techniques may be not any longer.
 
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slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
TLS, what are your thoughts on a "phantom center" where you just run the L/R speakers? I know that my Goldenears image very well and for 2 channel music it often sounds as if the center is running, even though it isn't.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
TLS, what are your thoughts on a "phantom center" where you just run the L/R speakers? I know that my Goldenears image very well and for 2 channel music it often sounds as if the center is running, even though it isn't.
I think a center channel is far from essential. On my big rig it is difficult to tell if the center is on or off. I do think there is an advantage for movies. I think the dialog is better preserved in the loud action scenes.

I do like to use the center alone for historic mono recordings. Mono sounds better through one good speaker rather then two.

This rig has no center.




Speech and localization are excellent. The speech discrimination band is handled by Dynaudio D76 dome mid range drivers crossed over at 400 Hz and 4000 kHz. So there is no crossover in the speech band. Center fixation is excellent even when the rig is listened to by the fire place way left of the left speaker. I spun a lot of vinyl listening by the fire place this winter.

On the rig with the 4" full range driver, I think speech discrimination for movies and TV has been improved, especially at low volume. Those drivers are quite exceptional and you would never guess you were listening to one small full range driver unless told and even then you would be incredulous.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Dr. Mark, do you know of any good full range drivers similar to the one you used for that center that would make a good single driver center channel?
 
J

jm78

Junior Audioholic
I think a center speaker should NEVER be a ported design. So since it is sealed it is second order roll off, so the acoustic and electrical crossover is composite fourth order.
Please explain more on this. I'm planning on perhaps using a kef q300 bookshelf as a vertical center. It is front ported, why would this be a negative?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Dr. Mark, do you know of any good full range drivers similar to the one you used for that center that would make a good single driver center channel?
The JW driver had a very strong niche following from 1959 to 1979. The company was sold to volt who did nothing with it and sold the name to musical instrument retailer. I have tried to buy the name back with the help of my brother who is an attorney. However the owners want a ridiculous amount of money.

The driver had a very strong following and sales in the Far East where the driver has always had "cult" status.

Mark Audio of Taiwan have basically copied/developed the driver and it is available from Madisound.

It is the Mark Audio ALP 10. It says it is 6" however they are counting the surround. The diaphragm of this driver and the JW is 88 sq cm. The driver is currently out of stock.




The driver has a standard suspension and not the unique suspension of the JW.




The JW MK II.




The MK III at the end of production has a cone with rolled rubber surround.



The T/S parameters of the Mark Audio ALP 10 and the JW are almost identical.

Both have an F3 of just below 90 Hz in a .25 cu.ft box and an F3 of 47 Hz in a 0.5 cu.ft vented box.

The JW is a slightly lower Qts driver and sealed the Qtc of the JW is 0.5 and essentially non resonant. The ALP 10 is 0.615.

The ALP has twice the power handling, but is 2 db less sensitive.

I have been tempted to buy a pair of Mark Audio ALP 10s out of curiosity, but never got round to it. The driver is however highly regarded.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Please explain more on this. I'm planning on perhaps using a kef q300 bookshelf as a vertical center. It is front ported, why would this be a negative?
A rear ported center is not very practical. A front ported speaker inevitably radiates some mid range in band pass fashion from the port. For really natural speech a low Qtc design is required, which means getting Qtc into the non resonant range at 0.5. Ported designs are inherently resonant and a Qtc that low is not possible.

The problem is there are so many drivers out there that will not get down to even 100 Hz without a port. This is a bad state of affairs. You don't need a lot of bass in a center speaker, but in sealed configuration is does need to be able to get down to at least 90 Hz.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks, Dr. Mark. I just e-mailed Madisound to back order a driver. I'm definitely curious to see how it turns out.
 

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