World’s Largest Atom Smasher Audioholics Survival Tips

[Halon451]

You are correct sir!

One of the purposes of building larger and large particle colliders is to try and simulate the physics that occurred during the first few moments of the Big Bang when temperatures were extremely high. It is thought that during the "Quantum Era" (0 < t [time] < 10^-43 sec = Planck Time), that T (temperature of the Universe) > 10^32 K [Kelvin] and all the 4 natural forces (see my earlier post) acted as one. The Quantum Era ended when gravity decoupled from the other 3 forces -- such a decoupling is known as "symmetry breaking" in physics (somewhat analogous to a phase transition in matter). This lead to the "GUT (Grand Unified Theory) Era" (10^-43 s < t < 10^-35 s, T_ave = 10^27 K = 10^23 eV [electron-volt] = 10^11 TeV [tera-eV, 1 tera = 10^12]). During this era, the strong, electromagnetic (E/M), and weak forces acted as one and the temp. was so high that only field particles could exist. At 10^-35 s, the strong force decoupled from the electroweak force and this symmetry breaking lead to an inflationary expansion of the Universe (an exponential instead of the normal linear growth). This "Inflationary Era" ended at 10^-32 s when the Universe had a temp. of 10^25 K = 10^9 TeV. Individual quarks were made out of the field particles during this time. This would be the era when the Higgs Boson becomes important. This lead to the "Quark Era" (10^-32 s < t < 10^-6 s) which corresponded to the Universe resuming a linear expansion and it is during this era when the E/M and weak forces decouple from each other. This symmetry breaking is not nearly as energetic as the previous symmetry breaking and has no impact on the expansion of the Universe. The temp. of the Universe at this decoupling is about 10^15 K = 0.1 TeV. (We are now at the energies that the LHC can reach.) At the end of this era, T = 10^13 K = 1 GeV and we enter the "Hadronic Era" which lasts until the Universe celebrates its 1 second birthday.

I won't go any further at this point and I left out a lot of important events during the eras that I did mention. From what I understand, I don't think the LHC will get anywhere close to seeing any evidence of the Higgs Boson (and it certainly won't make any, one would need a collider that was a billion times more energetic to create Higgs Bosons). However, whenever physicists turn on a new, more energetic collider, they always find out something new. I'm sure that the LHC will produce some very interesting results. It's just too bad that the U.S. Congress cut the funding for the Superconducting Supercollider (SSC) when it did since I believe it was suppose to reach higher energies than the LHC.

It's very interesting that all of this happened in the span of a mere second, and the universe as we know it commenced to exist. Admittedly, I am not quite as keen on the actual specifics of each era that you mentioned (with corresponding timeline mark and temperature), but have in the past done a little reading on the Grand Unified Theory, which is still, unfortunately only a theory at best. It does it's best explaining to simplify what you mentioned a bit, if I may, that because all of the universe's matter and energy existed in such an infinitely small area, that theoretically all known elementary forces could not act independently (I've nearly lost my mind trying to imagine the density!), therefore could only act as one unifying force that held the entire glob together. But I'm a nuclear engineer used to working with particles at energies between only 1 and 10 MeV (as they are called, "Prompt" neutrons), and rather pitiful in comparison to the actual energies estimated during the Big Bang, and even pitiful compared to the 14 TeV energies expected at each intersect point in the LHC when it is in full operation.

All I can say is wow... and we'll see what mysteries the LHC indeed reveals.

 

[Tomorrow]

Doc Brown mispronounce the metric prefix "giga" in "Back to the Future" -- he pronounced it "jiga" instead of "giga". He also had the wrong physics unit, he should have used "Joules" (energy) instead of "watts" (power) [note that 1 W = 1 J/s] -- it's total energy that should have been important in that experiment, not energy per unit time. I always show an example in my physics class that calculates the minimum energy of a lightning bolt and it comes to about 32 gigajoules (giga = 10^9, or a billion). On the other hand, Doc Brown knew how to build a flux capacitor and I don't, so I guess he can make these kinds of mistakes and keep his reputation.

I know, I'm a real nit-picker!

And here I thought gigajoules were just big, floppy bling-bling.

Actually, I experienced 300 joules 20+ times once. Bit part of my tongue off in that little fun exercise. Thank goodness I wasn't conscious to tell you about it. But I think I momentarily became a flux capacitor!

 

[Adam]

Actually, I experienced 300 joules 20+ times once. Bit part of my tongue off in that little fun exercise. Thank goodness I wasn't conscious to tell you about it. But I think I momentarily became a flux capacitor!

Ouch! If you don't mind me asking, what happened?

Also, "flux capacitor" just made "flux compressor" pop into my head. Now, that's a nifty device.

 

[Tomorrow]

Ouch! If you don't mind me asking, what happened?

Well, Adam.....

It turns out that you are MUCH more likely to be done in by a random clot of something just larger than the size of a pinhead in your left anterior descending artery than you are a black hole to the chicken fat. Fifteen blasts from the paddles with concommitant shots of lidocaine and another 5+ zaps (they lost count) switching to procainamide, and VOILA!...the heart started up again like a cold Model T engine and Tomorrow returned from the netherworld with burned chest and no memories of dark tunnels or white lights and long-lost ancestors greeting me. Then they took me to the Great Non-NASA Clot Smasher Cath-Lab and crushed the clot into bite sized pieces. (I was anoxic for 5+ minutes, btw. I woke up out of my coma 5 days later. And get this...no blaim dramage. ) That was the day I..uh..died on my wife's lap on the way to the hospital.

But enough about Tomorrow's infarct...this is one cool thread, and I'm sorry I got here so late. Thanks to A-Don for the cool semester's worth of information in one paragraph. Wish my physics profs could have done as well. Shoot, I'm still trying to figure out how a mu-meson can make it through our atmosphere to the ground.

These science threads are making me all .... giggly...or is that jiggly?

 

[Halon451]

Well, Adam.....

It turns out that you are MUCH more likely to be done in by a random clot of something just larger than the size of a pinhead in your left anterior descending artery than you are a black hole to the chicken fat. Fifteen blasts from the paddles with concommitant shots of lidocaine and another 5+ zaps (they lost count) switching to procainamide, and VOILA!...the heart started up again like a cold Model T engine and Tomorrow returned from the netherworld with burned chest and no memories of dark tunnels or white lights and long-lost ancestors greeting me. Then they took me to the Great Non-NASA Clot Smasher Cath-Lab and crushed the clot into bite sized pieces. (I was anoxic for 5+ minutes, btw. I woke up out of my coma 5 days later. And get this...no blaim dramage. ) That was the day I..uh..died on my wife's lap on the way to the hospital.

But enough about Tomorrow's infarct...this is one cool thread, and I'm sorry I got here so late. Thanks to A-Don for the cool semester's worth of information in one paragraph. Wish my physics profs could have done as well. Shoot, I'm still trying to figure out how a mu-meson can make it through our atmosphere to the ground.

These science threads are making me all .... giggly...or is that jiggly?

Holy crap Tomorrow, that's one heck of a story, and I'm certainly glad to hear that things turned out okay in the end.

 

[Adam]

Holy crap Tomorrow, that's one heck of a story, and I'm certainly glad to hear that things turned out okay in the end.

Ditto that!

 

[mtrycrafts]

You learn something new every day!

That is good, isn't it. Then we are not ready for that 6ft under box yet

 

[HookedOnSound]

I don't like the odds

1 in 50 million chance of vaporizing earth?

If they're trying to simulate the "Big Bang" theory chances are when they succeed it will live up to its name (Big Bang)

I don't like those odds...we're talking about 1 test, what happens when they repeat the experiment 1000 times?

I feel like I just waisted my money paying for life insurance...

 

[jneutron]

I am just curious now after seeing the pictures and the size of this is sinking in, 17 miles in length, what amount of power will it need to cool it so low and to power the magnets.

Actually, the picture is of the ATLAS detector. The external superconducting magnet coils are those big pipes.

The magnet cryostats within the tunnel are roughly 3 feet in diameter.

If one assumes a loss of 1 watt per 10 meters, (a good guess for the cryostat heatloss), 10 watts per 100 meters, 100 watts per kilometer.... 17 miles is 27.2 kilometers, times 10 is 2720 watts heatloss.

At 4.5 K, refrigeration is 1000 to 1, meaning it takes a kilowatt of energy to make up for 1 watt of helium boiloff. 1.8 Kelvin is about twice as difficult, so 2 Kw per watt.
2000 * 2720 is five megawatts to keep the magnets cool.

The biggest heatload will be the warm to cold leads, as there is a tradeoff between conductivity of the wires and thermal loss.

The RHIC project is 2.4 miles long, it uses 8 megawatts and is 4.5 Kelvin...so in reality, I'd expect the LHC to use 10 to 15 megawatts.

Cheers, John

 

[jneutron]

As to the power supply, hmm.

10 kiloamps at about 50 volts, maybe 100 volts to keep top energy going, be about a megawatt steady state.

Ramping, I don't know the ramp rate...but I would venture to guess they'll need maybe 8 units of 10 kiloamp supplies, each running about 1000 volts..so somewhere between 80 megawatts and maybe 120 megawatts. But that's only when they are bringing the machine up to full energy.

Cheers, John

 

[mtrycrafts]

Actually, the picture is of the ATLAS detector. The external superconducting magnet coils are those big pipes.

The magnet cryostats within the tunnel are roughly 3 feet in diameter.

If one assumes a loss of 1 watt per 10 meters, (a good guess for the cryostat heatloss), 10 watts per 100 meters, 100 watts per kilometer.... 17 miles is 27.2 kilometers, times 10 is 2720 watts heatloss.

At 4.5 K, refrigeration is 1000 to 1, meaning it takes a kilowatt of energy to make up for 1 watt of helium boiloff. 1.8 Kelvin is about twice as difficult, so 2 Kw per watt.
2000 * 2720 is five megawatts to keep the magnets cool.

The biggest heatload will be the warm to cold leads, as there is a tradeoff between conductivity of the wires and thermal loss.

The RHIC project is 2.4 miles long, it uses 8 megawatts and is 4.5 Kelvin...so in reality, I'd expect the LHC to use 10 to 15 megawatts.

Cheers, John

Most interesting, thanks.

That is a lot of power no matter how you slice and dice it
Would they have their own generating capability or from the power grid?

 

[jneutron]

Most interesting, thanks.

That is a lot of power no matter how you slice and dice it
Would they have their own generating capability or from the power grid?

Not sure. But given the power used at ramp, the magnet system itself could top 150 megawatts, and I'd figure that amount again for detectors, vacuum, infrastructure and such.. It wouldn't be very easy to keep a 200 or 300 megawatt generator up and running.

I'd guess they pull off the grid, get a quantity discount (duh), and have to shut down during the peak power summer months.

They kill two birds with that, as maintenence can be done during the summer months.

Cheers, John

 

[Rickster71]

Not sure. But given the power used at ramp, the magnet system itself could top 150 megawatts, and I'd figure that amount again for detectors, vacuum, infrastructure and such.. It wouldn't be very easy to keep a 200 or 300 megawatt generator up and running.
Cheers, John

With power requirements like that, you'd think they would build it near something like the Hoover Dam.

 

[Halon451]

Here's something you may find interesting...

http://lhc-machine-outreach.web.cern.ch/lhc-machine-outreach/faq/lhc-energy-consumption.htm

Peaking in July at about 180MW, which granted is a significant slice of the available power on most grids, but easily manageable. As noted, they do have diesel generator backups in case of a grid loss of power. Question is, how much will the yearly electric bill run??

 

[mtrycrafts]

With power requirements like that, you'd think they would build it near something like the Hoover Dam.

Yes, but Hoover man not have that kind of a reserve left

 

[Rickster71]

Yes, but Hoover man not have that kind of a reserve left

This sounds like a job for the Energizer Bunny.

 

[mtrycrafts]

This sounds like a job for the Energizer Bunny.

If he can energize a stranded UFO, he certainly can this one

 

[Adam]

Surprisingly educational:

Give it a minute...it picks up. I am definitely a geek at heart, and everywhere else. I actually liked it and learned something.

EDIT: Lyrics and original mp3: https://www.msu.edu/~mcalpin9/lhc_rap/largehadron.html

 

[race4aliving]

Thank's Adam, that's pretty cool, sort of like an adult Sesame Street..fun and you can actually learn something.

 

[yettitheman]

hmm.. so if I put my normal BBQ load in the direct center of this thing.. chances are it'll be cooked to perfection?

And... I'll be wearing an ERS paper suit and Tice Clock Earings