Will Denon ever release another pre-pro?

[Rob Babcock]

Back in the day Denon made a pretty high end proc called the AVP-8000. But to the best of my knowledge they've never released an A/V prepro since then. I know recievers are their bread & butter, but I wonder why they haven't tossed their hat into the ring again? Is it that some of the other companies owned by the same parent company do pre-pros and they don't want to compete against themselves?

Will they ever do a successor to the AVP-8000? I'd love to get my hands on one!

 

[AVRat]

I keep hoping. It would be nice to get all their processing capabilities and let the consumer decide on the power capacity.

 

[ggunnell]

Sadly, the only rationale I've been able to figure out is that now that the electronics industry has figured a way to get us to buy a new pre/pro every three years or so, if all they make is receivers we have to buy the power amps as well.

It is starting to occur to me to give up multi channel, go back to a tube amp and mini-monitors...

 

[Rob Babcock]

Ironically though the prepro's are generally more expensive than the receivers. When I ask why I usually get a lecture on macroeconomics and economy of scale. Still, you'd think it would be extraordinarily easy to make one- at the least they could take all the guts of a reciever & put it into a new chassis, sans amps. Would that sound better? That's not really my issue. It would run cooler, be smaller, and take less energy. And I could then choose how much power I wanted based on my needs, not the price point they want to hit.

My question: why do they automatically assume that more power and more features need to go hand in hand? In my mind a purist would want more power and actually desire less 'bells & whistles.' The current mindset of receiver manufacturers precludes this, though.

 

[ggunnell]

Rob, this is sheer speculation on my part, trying to 'reverse engineer' the thought processes behind some of the products I see coming across the Pacific.

It's almost as if products are being selected that support their local economies. Whether it's labor related (full employment in all the plants making the parts, including the steel industry for the transformer cores etc.), or whether it is trading raw materials for cash flow I don't know.

Another example is small integrated tube amps. Usually destined for use with high quality mini-monitors, one would expect tube selection based on that, and instead we see the same Chinese tubes -- all I can think of is to continue running the Chinese tube plant.

I think overseas manufacturers will continue to make 'what they want to make' rather than 'what we want to buy' as long as we buy what they make and don't give them any feedback.

 

[Sleestack]

My question: why do they automatically assume that more power and more features need to go hand in hand? In my mind a purist would want more power and actually desire less 'bells & whistles.' The current mindset of receiver manufacturers precludes this, though.

This has always been my gripe with most HT gear. I don't want everything in one box and don't want useless features. I chose the TCS MKII because it focuses on one thing... making things sound right.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

My question: why do they automatically assume that more power and more features need to go hand in hand? In my mind a purist would want more power and actually desire less 'bells & whistles.' The current mindset of receiver manufacturers precludes this, though.

Hi Rob,

I hear you, but at what price range are we talking about here? Would the processing unit your looking for cost more or less than a Denon 3806 or Yamaha 2600/2700? If so why would you pay more and not get the amps in the receivers?

Not being smart just asking,
SBF1

 

[AVRat]

I'd pay $1000 for the pre/pro of the 3806.

 

[MDS]

If the receiver has pre-outs so you can add any external amplification you want then the only real difference between that receiver and a dedicated pre-pro that is otherwise identical is the internal amps in the receiver. In a way buying a receiver with a great pre-pro section gets you the internal amplifiers for free because if the amps were stripped out and the pre-pro section placed in a different chassis the cost would likely still be the same.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

If the receiver has pre-outs so you can add any external amplification you want then the only real difference between that receiver and a dedicated pre-pro that is otherwise identical is the internal amps in the receiver. In a way buying a receiver with a great pre-pro section gets you the internal amplifiers for free because if the amps were stripped out and the pre-pro section placed in a different chassis the cost would likely still be the same.

That's my point...unless Rob is speaking of the hi-end and ultra-price equipment then I don't have much of an opinion since I don't like to torment myself and look at stuff I can't afford...

SBF1

 

[Sleestack]

I don't think I'd like to see the existing receivers simply with the amp sections removed. What I would like to see is a company like Denon take their flagship, remove the amps and video, and add some things like XLR outs, discrete digital outs and more robust room correction options.

 

[ht_addict]

Who needs a pre/pro from Denon when their receivers have exceptional preout stages and tons off processing for a fraction off the cost.

 

[agular]

Denon Pre-Pro "BRING IT ON"

Very interesting! I have used a separates approach, and an all in one approach; I am currently using a Denon AVR-5803A with a BAT VK-200 using the pre-outs on the front left and right channels of the Denon. The Denon amps don’t even come close to sounding anything like the Bat VK-200 amp. I have used separate Pre-Pro’s and nothing comes close the Denon’s processors. I have used Sunfire, Adcom, Aragon, and Integra Research. I guess if Denon would make a Pre-Pro I would most likely buy one.

 

[kgturner]

if denon released a decent pre-pro at a decent price, i'd be interested. but as it stands i'll probably just end up using my 3806 and an outboard amp.

kevin t

 

[xboxweasel]

For the cost of a Yamaha 2600 or Denon 2807 you really can't complain. They make great pre/pro's. However, like someone already mentioned, they run hot. I'm sure if Denon release a pre/pro it would cost more than the equivalent receiver.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Hi Rob,

I hear you, but at what price range are we talking about here? Would the processing unit your looking for cost more or less than a Denon 3806 or Yamaha 2600/2700? If so why would you pay more and not get the amps in the receivers?

Not being smart just asking,
SBF1

I'd do cartwheels over a $1k Denon pre-pro, or I might. But Denon has never made prepros for that market/price point. I'd fully expect $3k. Better would be an "entry" model roughly based upon the 3806 sans amps, with a more high end model, too.

If the receiver has pre-outs so you can add any external amplification you want then the only real difference between that receiver and a dedicated pre-pro that is otherwise identical is the internal amps in the receiver. In a way buying a receiver with a great pre-pro section gets you the internal amplifiers for free because if the amps were stripped out and the pre-pro section placed in a different chassis the cost would likely still be the same.

That's where the whole thing starts to get muddled. Why not, indeed, just use the receiver as a pre-pro and pretend it doesn't have amps? I have done that, obviously it works. But ideally the peice could be smaller, lighter & more reliable (less parts- less to go wrong). And it would run cooler and require less cooling capability. Some of that chassis space could be used for I/O instead of speaker terminals and the whole thing could still be made smaller.

Although Mtrycrafts & a few others will probably swarm all over this, I've never felt my any of my Denons sounded as good full range as they do as preamps. Perhaps it's just a power issue, even if it is, why pay for amps when you don't want to use them?

My real dream- to see Denon take DSP to the next step, going beyond just Audyssy to something like Meridian, DEQX & TACT do. Add useful video scaling/conversion to a wide array of inputs, including HDMI, and give that prepro room correction! That would kick ***.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Although Mtrycrafts & a few others will probably swarm all over this, I've never felt my any of my Denons sounded as good full range as they do as preamps. Perhaps it's just a power issue, even if it is, why pay for amps when you don't want to use them?
.

Well, not all over it, just a few added comments
The speakers may be too much of a load due to impedance and lack of sensitivity. One needs to compare them properly to see if there is in fact a difference.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Most of the speakers I've used are fairly benign loads. Although I suppose that doesn't mean those don't get nasty at some frequencies. In theory that's what you get an external amp for- to deal out massive power into any conceivable speaker load.

I, too, am mightily impressed by my current Denon, a 3805. Denon has features that no other brand does so far, as I can tell. I'd be all over it if they came out with a new preamp/processor. Especially with advanced room correction.

BTW, one of my favorite Denon features is Personal Memory Plus. It allows you to set the levels for each channel for every surround mode, for each individual input. That's incredibly handy. Let's say with PLII you like a tad more bass and a little lower surround level for music, but you prefer the bass flat & more surround for movies? With PL+ you can have the CD & DVD inputs each set differently. Not only that, you can similarly adjust the NEO6, Matrix, 5/7CH Stereo, etc etc independantly of each other for every single input! Do other brands allow this flexibility?

Over the years I've considered buying a 'real' pre pro, but on some level or another all I've looked fell short of my Denon rec. That's why I wish Denon would make one!

 

[ggunnell]

"My real dream- to see Denon take DSP to the next step, going beyond just Audyssy to something like Meridian, DEQX & TACT do. ........................... and give that prepro room correction! That would kick ***."

Or Yamaha. Or Emotiva by integrating the SHARC in the P1A into the prepro.

Whoever does it needs to get DSP parametric eq, with a visual graphical display, that goes all the way from 10Hz to 40kHz, all adjustments manual, so that ONE SPOT can be EQed flat.

Get that working first. All that would be for Yamaha is to extend the frequency range of their existing manual parametrics.

One you can manually EQ one spot, THEN work on automating the process.

When you can auto-EQ one spot and get it as well as a human can, THEN move on to integrating measurements from multiple locations.

EDIT: Oh my what was I thinking when I wrote: All that would be (necessary)for Yamaha is to extend the frequency range of their existing manual parametrics. No, No, NO! The parametric DSP display is great, but it's simply a simulation of the filters being applied, not an actual display of the signal from the microphone. Yamaha and every one else needs to add this feature before trying multi-point EQ.

 

[Rob Babcock]

I wouldn't need correction up to 40k- no one does! For that matter, I'd be delighted with the approach Meridian uses. They only do correction from (if I recall correctly) 250 hz and down, just the bass. That would be enough for me, but I'd be willing to experiment with it full range as TACT & DEQX do.