Why do more expensive speakers tend to be less efficient?

[Braddock]

Ive tried finding this online and cant seem to find it. Why are my old Cerwin Vega DX3's so efficient at 94db, yet my mid range Infinity Beta 50's are 91db and my girlfriends B&W 804 Nautilus' are only 87 or 89db. Whats the point of having a speaker that takes a beast of an amp to drive vs a speaker thats easy to drive? One would think the Cerwin Vegas would be the least efficent speakers while the B&W's the most efficient. But thats not the case.

 

[shadyJ]

I don't really see it that way. CWs are made for blazing rock n roll, sound quality be damned. They kind of have their niche. Outside of them, there isn't that many inexpensive high-sensitivity home audio speakers. You have BIC Acoustech, Klipsch Icon, and .. I can't think of anything else. All the high sensitivity speakers are expensive after that. Klipsch Heritage, Klipsch Palladium, Pi speakers, high end JBL, JTR, things like these, and so on. Of course, there are pricey speakers with low sensitivity, but the makers figure if you have the dough to buy the speaker, you will also have the money for a nice amp as well.

 

[twoeyedbob]

Cerwin vega's aim is to be the loudest ..therefore they make them efficient
B&w aim for sq ,so they sacrafice efficiency
Still not quite sure why it works that way...all to do with
Voice coil's and material i suppose

Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk 2

 

[slipperybidness]

The current reality is that amp power is cheap.

50 years ago, amp power was more expensive, so it made sense to make highly efficient speakers that could be driven with a modest amp. The current market forces have changed. Power is cheap so there isn't a lot of incentive to work towards a goal of high sensitivity speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think a lot of people feel that "loud speakers" compromise ultra accuracy for ultra volume.

I have not seen any measurements of JTR or Seaton speakers rated for 130dB+ to indicate they are as accurate as Revel, KEF, TAD, etc.

I think some would go somewhere in the middle for speakers that are around 95dB/2.83v/m that might still be very accurate, but I have not seen any measurements yet for them either.

Measurements aside, I think it's possible for high efficient/ loud speakers to sound very good in practice, even if they don't measure as well in the lab.

 

[Steve81]

Some light reading material:
Sensitivity and Hoffman’s Iron Law, or “why you can’t have your cake and eat it too†— Audioblog

 

[Nuance AH]

People want "pretty" speakers that extend low but aren't gigantic in size, and sensitivity is often sacrificed in order to achieve that. It's physics.

Edit: Just read your link, Steve81. That article does a nice job of explaining things. Good find.

 

[Steve81]

People want "pretty" speakers that extend low but aren't gigantic in size, and sensitivity is often sacrificed in order to achieve that. It's physics.

You know, I'd actually go counter to that trend. In the age of the subwoofer, I don't really ask my speakers to dig down to 20Hz or even 40Hz; 80Hz with a 12dB/octave roll off is quite adequate in my book. Of course, I'd want something that could deliver prodigious output down to 80Hz, so I'd want something relatively large and capable, and I'd prefer something reasonably sensitive/efficient so that I don't need half a dozen dedicated 20A circuits to power my theater. I'm not actively looking for an upgrade, but JTR has definitely popped up on my radar, and the thought had crossed my mind to talk to Dennis about a custom job since I appreciate his work.

 

[Nuance AH]

You know, I'd actually go counter to that trend. In the age of the subwoofer, I don't really ask my speakers to dig down to 20Hz or even 40Hz; 80Hz with a 12dB/octave roll off is quite adequate in my book. Of course, I'd want something that could deliver prodigious output down to 80Hz, so I'd want something relatively large and capable, and I'd prefer something reasonably sensitive/efficient so that I don't need half a dozen dedicated 20A circuits to power my theater. I'm not actively looking for an upgrade, but JTR has definitely popped up on my radar, and the thought had crossed my mind to talk to Dennis about a custom job since I appreciate his work.

You're a rarity among the masses...well, all of us "forum guys" are to be honest. Most people feel this is a niche hobby, and they're correct. Most people don't do what you and I do. The general population want something small but that provides good enough bass. And the 2-channel purists, niche or not, are anti-subwoofers (it's their loss ).

I bet Dennis could put something together for you that would smoke the JTR's, but that's just my opinion. Although, I've read the new Noesis speakers are awesome, and I've been told by a friend of mine (whom I trust) that they are the real deal. Still, I bet Dennis could it do better and for less money. No offense to JTR. If you do decide to move forward with a HE style design from Dennis I'd be very interested in the drivers chosen and the size/style of the cabinets. I look forward to how things progress.

 

[Steve81]

I bet Dennis could put something together for you that would smoke the JTR's, but that's just my opinion. Although, I've read the new Noesis speakers are awesome, and I've been told by a friend of mine (whom I trust) that they are the real deal. Still, I bet Dennis could it do better and for less money. No offense to JTR. If you do decide to move forward with a HE style design from Dennis I'd be very interested in the drivers chosen and the size/style of the cabinets. I look forward to how things progress.

I've not had an opportunity to hear a JTR speaker, and I'm definitely curious; as it is, my main gripe there would be the aesthetic/form factor. If they built the Triple 8 in a more conventional tower format, I'd be much more interested. Of course in either case, this is a "way down the road" type of project, unless I happen to find a briefcase full of money tomorrow. In the last six months I've obtained a new sub, amp, blu ray player, and currently in the process of getting a custom cabinet. Suffice it to say, the wallet needs a little time to cool and the wife needs time to forget just how much I blow feeding this little obsession

 

[Irvrobinson]

You know, I'd actually go counter to that trend. In the age of the subwoofer, I don't really ask my speakers to dig down to 20Hz or even 40Hz; 80Hz with a 12dB/octave roll off is quite adequate in my book.

I hear you, but FWIW, I suspect that the Revel's ability to reach down to 20Hz allowed me to easily live with one sub rather than the two or three subs it might normally take to achieve really smooth low bass. When I ran the mains with a high-pass filter at 80Hz I did get smooth response in the 80-200Hz range, where there was previously a suck-out centered at about 100Hz or so, but running the mains full-range achieved more smoothness below 80Hz. So if I had to pick I would still want main speakers with fully extended response, even with a monster sub.

 

[Steve81]

I hear you, but FWIW, I suspect that the Revel's ability to reach down to 20Hz allowed me to easily live with one sub rather than the two or three subs it might normally take to achieve really smooth low bass. When I ran the mains with a high-pass filter at 80Hz I did get smooth response in the 80-200Hz range, where there was previously a suck-out centered at about 100Hz or so, but running the mains full-range achieved more smoothness below 80Hz. So if I had to pick I would still want main speakers with fully extended response, even with a monster sub.

True enough, but as long as I'm dreaming about custom built speakers, we may as well toss in a couple of Funk 18.3s for good measure

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The main question is what are you trying to do with 130dB speakers? For example, we can see the reason for filling a 100-seat room with HE speakers. But most of us just listen in our homes with rooms no larger than 18' x 20'.

 

[j_garcia]

Ive tried finding this online and cant seem to find it. Why are my old Cerwin Vega DX3's so efficient at 94db, yet my mid range Infinity Beta 50's are 91db and my girlfriends B&W 804 Nautilus' are only 87 or 89db. Whats the point of having a speaker that takes a beast of an amp to drive vs a speaker thats easy to drive? One would think the Cerwin Vegas would be the least efficent speakers while the B&W's the most efficient. But thats not the case.

Speaker designers who design for optimum sound are less concerned with sensitivity than getting the sound right, IMHO. To say that "all" expensive speakers are low sensitivity is absolutely not true though. 89dB sensitive is NOT low sensitivity

 

[Steve81]

The main question is what are you trying to do with 130dB speakers? For example, we can see the reason for filling a 100-seat room with HE speakers. But most of us just listen in our homes with rooms no larger than 18' x 20'.

I don't know about 130dB, but I want speakers that will give me full reference level peaks (up to 105dB from each satellite channel at the listening position) without distorting, straining, compressing, etc. This calls for something a bit more capable than a set of NHT SuperZeros.

 

[Nuance AH]

Speaker designers who design for optimum sound are less concerned with sensitivity than getting the sound right, IMHO. To say that "all" expensive speakers are low sensitivity is absolutely not true though. 89dB sensitive is NOT low sensitivity

Tell that to the "reference level" HT crowed who claims anything below 95 or so is low sensitivity. It'll make you want to face palm all day long.

I don't know about 130dB, but I want speakers that will give me full reference level peaks (up to 105dB from each satellite channel at the listening position) without distorting, straining, compressing, etc. This calls for something a bit more capable than a set of NHT SuperZeros.

Dr. Floyd Toole actually gets into this in his book. In a nutshell he says unless the room is quite large that most traditional dome-style speakers can reach those levels for the short periods of time that movies and dynamic music requires, provided they are sufficiently powered of course. The SuperZero's probably don't fall into that category, though.

 

[Steve81]

Tell that to the "reference level" HT crowed who claims anything below 95 or so is low sensitivity. It'll make you want to face palm all day long.

95dB is weak sauce. All the speakers in my HT are 96 and up Of course, that's a liberal rating, but that's another story. I'd consider an honest 95dB to be very high sensitivity. Certainly it's high enough that I don't need anything terribly exotic in terms of amplification to achieve any volume I'd care for.

Dr. Floyd Toole actually gets into this in his book. In a nutshell he says unless the room is quite large that most traditional dome-style speakers can reach those levels for the short periods of time that movies and dynamic music requires, provided they are sufficiently powered of course. The SuperZero's probably don't fall into that category, though.

I have little doubt something like a pair of EMP E55Ti's would be able to give me more than enough volume without strain; doesn't require anything exotic to be sure. Really in the area of output/sensitivity, all I'd like out of an ideal speaker versus the EMP is trading a bit of extension for extra sensitivity to make it easier to drive.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I want speakers that will give me full reference level peaks (up to 105dB from each satellite channel at the listening position) without distorting, straining, compressing, etc.

I think a lot of speakers could accomplish this, not just 95dB or 100dB speakers.

The question is, do you know the actual distortion & measurements of the high efficient speakers ? How do you know they are not distorting @ 10% @ 105dB and you're just not hearing the distortion?

 

[Steve81]

I think a lot of speakers could accomplish this, not just 95dB or 100dB speakers.

Sure; like I said, the (88dB sensitive) E55Ti could probably give me as much clean volume as I can handle. However, if EMP Tek decided to re-engineer that model so you could net 91dB sensitivity without any special impact to impedance & electrical phase, at the expense of a some of extension (say having it rated -3dB at 60Hz instead of 40Hz), I'd probably opt for that model over the original. Of course, this is just one guy's opinion, and I don't purport it to be some gospel truth that everyone must listen to.

The question is, do you know the actual distortion & measurements of the high efficient speakers ? How do you know they are not distorting @ 10% @ 105dB and you're just not hearing the distortion?

I'm not under the impression that high sensitivity is some magical cure all that inherently makes a speaker superior and automatically results in infinitesimal distortion figures. High sensitivity is merely one trait among many that I find desirable.

 

[lsiberian]

1. The more efficient the driver the bigger the box. The reason why JTRs can sound good is because they are huge. You'll notice this is common with pro speakers.

2. BSC- Baffle Step typically reduces the sensitivity of the speaker overall to ensure even response

JTRs uses every technology to improve sensitivity while maximizing sound quality. If you've heard Andrew Jones you know that having a woofer as a waveguide does wonderful things for a speaker. 3 drivers give you a nice boost. The cabinets are a nice size.

That said they are not low quality by any means and they are not cheap either.